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Subject: When to apply church cards in the Gift phase? rss

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Dev Null
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There a quite a few posts in these forums about church cards, but none quite seems to answer my question; apologies if I just missed it.

We bought a new copy of presumably the latest release, and played it for the first time last night. Seemed fun. The rules are quite clear that church cards are applied as soon as they are _acquired_. Then there's a little explanatory box to one side that doesn't seem to make any sense to me (or my wife) at all.

I can't quote the exact wording, but it essentially says that:

1) a church card is acquired in the Gift phase when it is chosen by a player, BUT
2) a church card is NOT acquired in the Gift phase when the active player draws it and adds it to their hand, nor when it is chosen from the public space by another player.

I don't understand how #1 can ever apply unless #2 also applies, which sounds like it is just saying that church cards are never applied in the Gift phase at all, which sounds wrong. We essentially just ignored that "explanatory" bubble, and applied the church cards whenever they were added to a player's hand. Is that correct?
 
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mortego
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You are correct!
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Dev Null
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That does seem to imply that the explanatory box in the rules is just flat-out wrong?
 
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Thomas Bass
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Here's the text from the explanatory box: "Note: A Church card is acquired when a player chooses it during the Gift phase or wins it during the Auction phase. During the Gift Phase, in other words, a Church card is not acquired when it is drawn, but when the active player keeps it for himself or when another player chooses it from the public space. A Church card placed in the Auction pile is not played at that point."

A church card IS acquired when the active player adds it to their hand, which is not what you've written in (2) above.
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Rich Charters
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bassfamily wrote:
Here's the text from the explanatory box: "Note: A Church card is acquired when a player chooses it during the Gift phase or wins it during the Auction phase. During the Gift Phase, in other words, a Church card is not acquired when it is drawn, but when the active player keeps it for himself or when another player chooses it from the public space. A Church card placed in the Auction pile is not played at that point."

A church card IS acquired when the active player adds it to their hand, which is not what you've written in (2) above.
Agree. The explanatory box is trying to clarify that the act of drawing a church card from the deck doesn't determine who will change the value of the di(c)e.

1) If he puts it on the auction pile, nothing happens until later.
2) If he assigns it to himself, he immediately changes the value of the di(c)e.
3) If he pushes it to the other players (very wise thing to do in the early game), then whoever get stuck with it changes the value of the di(c)e as soon as then are forced to pick it up.
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bassfamily wrote:
...in other words, a Church card is not acquired when it is drawn, but when the active player keeps it for himself or when another player chooses it from the public space."


Oh! I think I get it now. I read this phrase as:

in other words, a Church card is not acquired ((when it is drawn, but when the active player keeps it for himself) or (when another player chooses it from the public space.))

but it was intended as:

in other words, a Church card is not acquired when it is drawn, but ((when the active player keeps it for himself) or (when another player chooses it from the public space.))

...which makes much more sense. That way of reading it honestly just didn't occur to me at all.

Thanks for the help!
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Erik Henry
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Just to perfectly explicit:

Say I allocate the first card to myself, putting it face-down in front of me. Then I allocate the other cards, and then I put the face-down card into my hand.

If my allocated card is a bishop, I'm reading this as I acquire the bishop and do the dice modification as soon as I choose to put the bishop in front of me--not when I literally add it to my hand. Is that correct?

If I was able to see the other allocated cards first it could affect my decision of which die to modify, so I wanted to make sure I had it correct. But the most-thumbed post mentions it being acquired when it's added to my hand...but I don't think that's technically correct.
 
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Rich Charters
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Erik17 wrote:
Say I allocate the first card to myself, putting it face-down in front of me. Then I allocate the other cards, and then I put the face-down card into my hand.

Three thoughts (not sure if this aligns with the rule book):
1) if it's a church card, you don't allocate it face down to yourself, you allocated it face up (and change the dice).
2) any card face down in front of you would be considered part of your "hand" in this game.
3) In practice, we never put a card face down in front of ourself. When we allocate a card to ourself, we put it directly into our hand.
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Erik Henry
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richcharters wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
Say I allocate the first card to myself, putting it face-down in front of me. Then I allocate the other cards, and then I put the face-down card into my hand.

Three thoughts (not sure if this aligns with the rule book):
1) if it's a church card, you don't allocate it face down to yourself, you allocated it face up (and change the dice).
2) any card face down in front of you would be considered part of your "hand" in this game.
3) In practice, we never put a card face down in front of ourself. When we allocate a card to ourself, we put it directly into our hand.

I try to have people go through the step of putting the self-allocated card face down in front of them first (as described in the rule book), just because sometimes people lose track of whether they've taken a card yet or not when they put it directly into their hand (especially when beer's involved). But yeah, really it doesn't matter.

I agree with you though, that the bishop gets resolved immediately. I was just confused when Thomas said "A church card IS acquired when the active player adds it to their hand." But I think, as you say, it's just semantics. I just wanted confirmation.
 
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