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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Overrun vs Ascension to Mastermind rss

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Christopher Boucher
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If a villain escapes and Ascends to become a Mastermind, have they also overrun, thus fulfilling the plots which count numbers of overruns?

The lady is saying 'no' (partly because we can't beat Apocalypse with only 5 cards) , but in the interest of masochism, I think they -do- count.
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YaVerOt YaVerOt
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Does something actually count escapes/overruns? I thought everything that did something like that only counted what was in the escape/overrun pile. Which still leaves if they are momentarily on that pile forcing a loss sooner.

Either way the escape triggers the KO from HQ and discard if they had a bystander.
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Adam Steele
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It's a sticky subject, and I'm willing to work either way. It's probably best to count ascension as having escaped, because it's still clear they escaped. However, I'd be willing to concede them as no longer escaped if you defeat them as masterminds. After all, you took them down. They chose to stick around and do work. It's their fault they took that risk. King Hyperion would be the one awkward spot if not for the rules specifically excluding masterminds this way.
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Theorel Masheriel
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there's a couple different ways that the evil wins condition is worded:

base set has: "When 12 Villains escape." for negative zone prison breakout
a few other schemes refer to specific villains and either say "escape" or "have escaped"
taking us to Villains, with Resurrect Heroes with Norn Stones which says:
"When there are 3 Adversaries per player in the Overrun Pile."

(Secret Wars 1) Smash Two Dimensions Together went back to "When 10 Villains Escape"

But, (Secret Wars 2)
The Fountain of Eternal Life "When the number of escaped Villains is 3 times the number of players."
and Master the Mysteries of Kung-Fu and
Deadlands Hordes Charge the Wall are similar.

I would say, "When X villains escape" clearly counts ascended masterminds...they escaped.
When the number of escaped Villains is X is less clear. Are they "escaped Villains"? I think the answer is still yes, even if you defeated them later, they are escaped villains.


EDIT: According to a ruling from Devin Low, cards which do not enter the escape pile do not count as having "escaped" (see here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12735170#12735170, where Devin specifically notes interaction with Negative Zone Prison Breakout)

But the Villains plot counts adversaries in the overrun pile. I think ascended masterminds never go there...so I think they wouldn't count for that one.
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YaVerOt YaVerOt
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Theorel wrote:
there's a couple different ways that the evil wins condition is worded:


Thank you for clearing up my ignorance. I still don't know there is a clear answer, except for certain schemes.
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Michael Green
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I've been wondering for a while about this question too. Still not sure which what's correct.

Let me ask this though:

Is an escaped villain that ascends to become a mastermind still technically a villain, or is it now a mastermind?
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David A
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I don't know if we've seen an official ruling on this, but I play them as Villains while in the city, but then as Masterminds once they escape. I never play them as both at any time. I see it as something like a transformation, a bit of chrysalis action, if you will.
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Michael Green
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So if they are masterminds and no longer villains, can they count towards the number of escaped villains?
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David A
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Yes, for my games, at least. Again, with no official ruling, that's how I play it.
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Ovi Matteo
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Cards have no memory. If a villain escapes and becomes a mastermind, I do not take him into account. Technically you do not interact anymore with escaped villains. In our case the villain does not run like a coward. He stays for the fight.
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Jem
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Has there been a ruling on whether Reignfire & Mystique count?

I'd see it as the same thing : they definitely don't count for "X villains in the escape pile" schemes because we know they never go there and should go wherever STs and MSs go, but have we had a ruling on whether they count for "X villains have escaped" schemes?
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Adam Steele
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That is definitely an interesting point. It has been ruled by Devin Low that Mystique never enters the escaped villains pile, but instead becomes a Scheme Twist card in every way. Reignfire works the same way. Effects that trigger upon escaping (KOing in HQ/Lair, discarding for bystanders) will still happen, but they never entire the pile. While this is technically different from saying they don't count as having escaped, I could see him ruling that way. Furthermore, doing otherwise would result in potential memory issues that are always troublesome.
The main example I can conceive is if Reignfire escapes and becomes a Master Strike for the proper, non-zombie Mysterio Mastermind. It would get shuffled among his other Mastermind Tactics. While sure, we could start using dice or counters to track escaped villains, that's what the Escaped pile is supposed to represent already.
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