Recommend
9 
 Thumb up
 Hide
43 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Scythe» Forums » General

Subject: Need Advice from Playtesters on Rusviet Balance. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ben Kyo
Japan
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm curious as to how the factory rush compares with the Rusviet turtling strategy discussed here.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Castree
Japan
Osaka
Osaka
flag msg tools
ACGalaga.com
badge
What da heck?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not a playtester, but we've had issues with Rusveit spamming produce from the start and by turn 4 have a mech and all their workers. They only have to produce a couple times one more produce on a mountain they could have out two more mechs.

So it seems these are different techniques but is the Rusviet ability too good?

Now, there is claim that every faction has really good strategies, but is that what the game will boil down to? Only playing those strategies? Hope you get some more feedback.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
First off, general counterarguments you will see:

1. Rusviet isn't in every game.
2. Playtesting suggested Rusviet was weak, so they got buffed. Jury is still out.
3. Rusviet can do some things quickly but they might not win against certain strategies or very aggressive invasions or everyone focusing them.


I'm planning to make a thread in the Strategy forum (if that's the proper way for it) to discuss Rusviet strategy / balance as a whole. However, first I wanted to nail down the Factory thing.

I made a thread (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1602140/factory-racing-and-...) mentioning the 4-5 turn Factory rush, and some people suggested other factions can also do Factory quickly.

However, I can find no possibility for any other faction to reach the Factory in less than 9 turns. This means that Rusviet always gets maximum benefit from the available Factory cards. This becomes more powerful the more players are in the game, because they have more chances for good Factory card synergy.

If anyone can find a sub-9-turn Factory rush please let me know to complete my data.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Rusviet isn't imbalanced in games that don't contain Rusviet.

Good lord why does anyone think this is a relevant argument?

Not saying that you specifically are advancing that line of though, GAF, but I feel like I've also seen that reasoning from several different people and it doesn't make any sense at all.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Weber
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tankbard wrote:
Quote:
Rusviet isn't imbalanced in games that don't contain Rusviet.

Good lord why does anyone think this is a relevant argument?

Not saying that you specifically are advancing that line of though, GAF, but I feel like I've also seen that reasoning from several different people and it doesn't make any sense at all.


As an argument against there being a problem it'squite senseless, that's right. I guess it's more of a preliminary way of getting away from the problem unless you are playing with five players, for the time being.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
trevor

Missouri
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Their ability does seem a little imbalanced, would love to hear others thoughts.......
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Billy Loos
msg tools
GAFBlizzard wrote:
First off, general counterarguments you will see:

1. Rusviet isn't in every game.
2. Playtesting suggested Rusviet was weak, so they got buffed. Jury is still out.
3. Rusviet can do some things quickly but they might not win against certain strategies or very aggressive invasions or everyone focusing them.


I'm planning to make a thread in the Strategy forum (if that's the proper way for it) to discuss Rusviet strategy / balance as a whole. However, first I wanted to nail down the Factory thing.

I made a thread (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1602140/factory-racing-and-...) mentioning the 4-5 turn Factory rush, and some people suggested other factions can also do Factory quickly.

However, I can find no possibility for any other faction to reach the Factory in less than 9 turns. This means that Rusviet always gets maximum benefit from the available Factory cards. This becomes more powerful the more players are in the game, because they have more chances for good Factory card synergy.

If anyone can find a sub-9-turn Factory rush please let me know to complete my data.


The argument of "Rusviet isn't in every game" is extremely weak when discussing balance of the faction. I have seen several people use this as a defense which basically states. "They are balanced because sometimes they aren't in the game."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Lindvall
United States
Bismarck
North Dakota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have yet to even play... but if it becomes a problem adding a coin cost to re-using the same mat section seems like it would likely slow them down enough.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Billy Loos
msg tools
Something to note on the Factories. The Rusviet faction actually says you may choose the same action on your "player mat" Does the factory actually count as "player mat"? I would say it does not.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Milo Gertjejansen
United States
Hopkins
Minnesota
flag msg tools
~ >
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I think the rules clarify and say that for the purposes of this ability, the Factory card is a part of your player mat.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mick Whyte
Australia
Gold Coast
Queensland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played 7 games now and to be honest Factory cards can be highly overrated. Why? because of the fact that you don't get any coin for bottom row actions in fact you pay for them.

Expample: one of the player mats provides 3 coin for building a mech, the play takes a factory card where they pay 2 coin for 1 mech. This means they are losing a potential 20 coin. where the average score is around 80 you are sacrificing 1/4 of your coin.

Seeing what bottom row action gets the most coin and then putting it to good use is a huge part of the game.

I suggest inserting the Automa (Normal) or Automaszyna (Hard) into you games. This way everyone only has a limited number of turns (20-25) and it teaches you to think much more deeply about your moves.

Because by about 7 turns into any game every action should be producing a top and bottom.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Billy Loos
msg tools
Mick_whyte wrote:
I've played 7 games now and to be honest Factory cards can be highly overrated. Why? because of the fact that you don't get any coin for bottom row actions in fact you pay for them.

Expample: one of the player mats provides 3 coin for building a mech, the play takes a factory card where they pay 2 coin for 1 mech. This means they are losing a potential 20 coin. where the average score is around 80 you are sacrificing 1/4 of your coin.

Seeing what bottom row action gets the most coin and then putting it to good use is a huge part of the game.

I suggest inserting the Automa (Normal) or Automaszyna (Hard) into you games. This way everyone only has a limited number of turns (20-25) and it teaches you to think much more deeply about your moves.

Because by about 7 turns into any game every action should be producing a top and bottom.


I think you are downplaying the potential of having 4 mechs on the board by turn 8. Are you giving up coins, yes. IF you have that mat. What if your poor action is enlist and you grab an enlist factory action. Same deal. Taking actions does = money in this game so to have that kind of board presence that early in the game makes things swing in your favor very quickly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan
United States
Trumbull
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GAFBlizzard wrote:
If anyone can find a sub-9-turn Factory rush please let me know to complete my data.

Saxony + Industrial has a 6-turn 7-turn factory play:

1. Move (Character --> Mountain)
2. Trade (+2 metal)
3. Produce (+1 metal, +1 oil or worker) / Deploy (Underpass)
4. Move (Mountain --> Tunnel)
5. Trade (+2 metal)
6. Produce (+1 metal, +1 oil or worker) / Deploy (Speed)
7. Move to Factory

EDIT: Moving wrong unit. Added 1 move in there. 7-turn play.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan
United States
Trumbull
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nordic + Industrial has a 7-turn factory play:

1. Move (Character --> Forest or Tundra; Worker --> Mountain)
2. Trade (+2 metal)
3. Move (Character --> Mountain)
4. Produce (+1 metal, +1 wood or oil) / Deploy (Seaworthy)
5. Move (Character --> Lake)
6. Misc.
7. Move to Factory
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil
United States
Morton Grove
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
It will be very interesting to see the various strategy articles that come out in the next month or so, and possible ways to counter them.

750 playtests of varying strategies can only go so far, now we'll see the folks that can really grok the engine.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Schwartzberg
Canada
Thornhill
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GAFBlizzard wrote:

2. Playtesting suggested Rusviet was weak, so they got buffed. Jury is still out.


I'll start by stating, I have not played my copy yet (game got cancelled this week soblue). However, I did 'test' a round or two and it was Rusviet I was using and saw the benefit of multiple productions. That's not to say there isn't a way to counter, but I have tried to read through these strategies. Maybe there are other undiscovered benefits to the other factions and Rusviet is just more 'straight forward'.

I am curious as to how Rusviet was set up before the change. Was there a cost to using the double action? For example, if you want to use the double action, it costs you a combat card (ie you are pushing your military into helping).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan
United States
Trumbull
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The magic faction combo is relevant mech movement ability + metal on one of the 3 starting hexes for that faction. The magic action mat combo is deploy as a bottom action for trade or produce.

Two more:

NORDIC + AGRICULTURAL

1. Move (Character --> Forest or Tundra; Worker --> Mountain)
2. Trade (+2 metal)
3. Move (Character --> Mountain)
4. Trade (+2 metal) / Deploy (Seaworthy)
5. Move (Character --> Lake)
6. Misc.
7. Move to Factory

SAXONY + AGRICULTURAL

1. Trade (+2 metal)
2. Move (Character --> Mountain; 2nd Worker --> Mountain)
3. Trade (+2 metal) / Deploy (Underpass)
4. Move (Character --> Tunnel)
5. Produce (+2 metal)
6. Trade (+2 metal) / Deploy (Speed)
7. Move to Factory
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamey Stegmaier
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Evan: Rusviet had a cost to use their ability. I think we tested various costs, but what we found is that if there was any cost at all, no one ever used the ability. Even the slightest cost was enough of a deterrent to not use it (even though that doesn't make sense, that's what happened). So we got rid of the cost, and as a result, we saw Rusviet wins increase to the level of the other factions.

Of course, as Phil notes, there's a big difference between having 750 playtests and having 26,000 people playing the game over and over. I think everything is balanced enough (especially with the X factor of player interaction) for the game to stay fun for many plays, but I also look forward to seeing all of the information/strategies revealed in the coming months. Then we'll release the first expansion!
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Schwartzberg
Canada
Thornhill
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jameystegmaier wrote:
Evan: Rusviet had a cost to use their ability. I think we tested various costs, but what we found is that if there was any cost at all, no one ever used the ability. Even the slightest cost was enough of a deterrent to not use it (even though that doesn't make sense, that's what happened). So we got rid of the cost, and as a result, we saw Rusviet wins increase to the level of the other factions.

Of course, as Phil notes, there's a big difference between having 750 playtests and having 26,000 people playing the game over and over. I think everything is balanced enough (especially with the X factor of player interaction) for the game to stay fun for many plays, but I also look forward to seeing all of the information/strategies revealed in the coming months. Then we'll release the first expansion!


Jamey,
As always, thanks for the quick and informative response. I don't believe in house ruling anything especially if I haven't tried it the intended way a number of times and I'll trust your extensive playtesting to my initial thoughts. It will be interesting to follow the evolution of strategies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan
United States
Trumbull
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
(I hate doing so many replies in one thread.)

CRIMEA + INDUSTRIAL

1. Move (Character --> Farm; Worker --> Mountain)
2. Trade (+2 metal)
3. Produce (+1 metal, +1 food or worker) / Deploy (Riverwalk)
4. Move (Character --> Tunnel)
5. Trade (+2 metal)
6. Produce (+1 metal, +1 food or worker) / Deploy (Speed)
7. Move to Factory

CRIMEA + MECHANICAL

1. Move (Character --> Farm; Worker --> Mountain)
2. Trade (+2 metal)
3. Bolster (+1 Combat Card) / Deploy (Riverwalk)
4. Move (Character --> Tunnel)
5. Trade (+2 metal)
6. Bolster (+1 Combat Card) / Deploy (Speed)
7. Move to Factory

CRIMEA + AGRICULTURAL

1. Trade (+2 metal)
2. Move (Character --> Farm; 1st Worker --> Mountain)
3. Trade (+2 metal) / Deploy (Riverwalk)
4. Move (Character --> Tunnel; 2nd Worker --> Mountain)
5. Produce (+2 metal)
6. Trade (+2 metal) / Deploy (Speed)
7. Move to Factory

I'm doing all this off images in the BGG gallery (I don't have my copy yet). I haven't found the 5th mat (I've got Agricultural, Industrial, Patriotic, and Mechanical) so I don't know if that one combos.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Billy Loos
msg tools
Team D20 wrote:
Mick_whyte wrote:
I've played 7 games now and to be honest Factory cards can be highly overrated. Why? because of the fact that you don't get any coin for bottom row actions in fact you pay for them.

Expample: one of the player mats provides 3 coin for building a mech, the play takes a factory card where they pay 2 coin for 1 mech. This means they are losing a potential 20 coin. where the average score is around 80 you are sacrificing 1/4 of your coin.

Seeing what bottom row action gets the most coin and then putting it to good use is a huge part of the game.

I suggest inserting the Automa (Normal) or Automaszyna (Hard) into you games. This way everyone only has a limited number of turns (20-25) and it teaches you to think much more deeply about your moves.

Because by about 7 turns into any game every action should be producing a top and bottom.
Good points, however I believe you are forgetting the power of the bottom row action on the factory card. With two movement for one unit, you can easily move your hero character to spots where there are encounters and get those bonuses. This was even easier since I had a factory card that let me deploy mechs so that I could get plus 1 move every time I moved my hero. I was first to reach the second level on the popularity track, and from the encounters I got a lot of resources, especially food, so that I could then go spam the enlist action, including the mech deployment bonus and get coins when my neighbors deployed their mechs.

This was usually especially frustrating for the white player who wants to sweep up those encounters to utilize their faction power.


I think this is also extremely important to note. Not only is it a boon for the Rusviet player to get them it is a bane for the other players to not be able to get them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Broadbent
United States
Covington
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Dan and everyone,
I haven't seen (or didn't recognize) playtesters chime in to answer the question you asked.

I did quite a few playtests (though I think there are backers who have played more than me, while I wait for my copy to arrive), and I helped with a bit of data crunching to analyze the balance of the Factions.
Initially, with a small ($1?) cost to Rusviet's ability, they were winning only 14% of the time (instead of 20% as they should be). Removing the cost helped bring them up.

Rusviet can get to the Factory pretty quickly - sometimes that can be amazing and sometimes it is wasted effort (if none of the cards are going to help your strategy). It is not at all uncommon for the winner to not even have a Factory card (or perhaps gain it near the end as a fringe benefit for seizing the 3-Territory Factory hex).

You asked about strategies. When your Character is running around collecting Encounters (which typically are only moderate gains), there are a lot of other things you aren't doing. Further, most encounters are very close to your opponents - they should be able to readily pounce on you and capture all of the goods that you are dragging around the board with your Character.

The comment about the coins is significant, too. Once you have deployed your 4 Mechs (at a super discount!), the Factory card you mention basically becomes useless to you. You don't want to pay a coin to Move and Deploying Mechs 5 through N with the Factory card does absolutely nothing for you (whereas it gives you coin on most Mats). So, your Factory card helped you establish a large military presence, but it didn't help your other 5 Stars any more (and perhaps less) than the normal Mat actions would have helped.

As to strategies to counter the Rusviet rush to the Factory - I don't think there is a specific, single approach that they should take. They will need to assess the synergies between their Faction and Player Mat and select a strategy that maximizes their per-turn benefit (this is predominantly a Euro game, after all). They will, of course, need to seize on opportunities that present themselves from others' actions, such as attacking the Rusviet or Polania Character that is wandering the board having Encounters.

If you are getting your Mech Star at turn 7 - how many turns are you taking for your next 5 Stars? You will still only have 2 Workers, no Recruits, no gained Popularity, no won Combats, maybe you will be close to an Objective, no Buildings, no Upgrades. Can you get all 5 remaining stars in the next 13 or so turns? A savvy opponent will get their stars out in that time, so you need to hurry. This is the biggest reason we've seen people stop chasing Encounters - they're fun and exciting to get cheap stuff, but they typically are slower than just getting the stuff normally. If you spend the game chasing Encounters, you likely won't win. Even if you are Polania.

So, my advice to you is to keep playing, keep pushing the envelope, keep seeking synergies. The game will reward you for it.

Caveat - my statements are generalities, not strict calculations. Please take my statements with one or two grains of salt. Sea salt, preferably. Maybe Himalayan pink.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
JumboCactaur wrote:
I have yet to even play... but if it becomes a problem adding a coin cost to re-using the same mat section seems like it would likely slow them down enough.

What's funny is that I -seem- to recall Rusviet originally had to pay a cost to use their ability, possibly in coins. But then Rusviet wasn't winning enough compared to the other factions in playtesting, and people didn't like being the only one to pay for their special ability, and things changed. *edit* I was beaten by Jamey himself above, this is what I get for reading the thread incrementally.

Alan Stern wrote:
GAFBlizzard wrote:
If anyone can find a sub-9-turn Factory rush please let me know to complete my data.

Saxony + Industrial has a 6-turn 7-turn factory play:

Alan Stern wrote:
Nordic + Industrial has a 7-turn factory play

Thank you! I was missing the possibility of other factions using 2 mechs to do the rush. I'll add this information to my thread.

So it turns out Rusviet can always get the factory by turn 4-5, and other factions are 7+ depending on player mats.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
clbroad wrote:
The comment about the coins is significant, too. Once you have deployed your 4 Mechs (at a super discount!), the Factory card you mention basically becomes useless to you. You don't want to pay a coin to Move and Deploying Mechs 5 through N with the Factory card does absolutely nothing for you (whereas it gives you coin on most Mats).

A note about the bolded: The Factory card Move is free. You can use that with the Speed mech ability to move a character/mech 3 spaces for free, ignoring the top action of the Factory card.

That may not be USEFUL, but it is FREE.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Alan Stern wrote:
(I hate doing so many replies in one thread.)

[snip]

I'm doing all this off images in the BGG gallery (I don't have my copy yet). I haven't found the 5th mat (I've got Agricultural, Industrial, Patriotic, and Mechanical) so I don't know if that one combos.

Thanks for all your work! For reference, the Engineering mat is this one: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3078980/zeusss?size=large

*edit*
That means any Factory rush that works with Agricultural works with Engineering.

Polonia 7-turn with Agricultural or Engineering:
1. Move worker + character
2. Trade for 2 iron
3. Move worker + character
4. Trade for 2 iron + deploy lake walk
5. Move character onto lake
6. (any action besides move)
7. Move character onto factory
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.