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1822: The Railways of Great Britain» Forums » Rules

Subject: 20 and 21 minor revenue question rss

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Jonathan Anderson
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The minors 20 and 21 have home cities that are worth $20 and $30 respectively in the yellow phase. Each home city also extends to connect to a small town in the other city's hex. Unlike all of the other small towns printed on the board (labeled with $10), these two are unlabeled.

The lack of labels and the fact that the board design goes out of its way to position these towns in each other's city's hexes are both strong suggestions that the revenue value for these towns should be indicated by the containing hex's revenue track, which would make these two minors extremely powerful, especially in green phase when both cities jump to $40.

I could not find a clarification or clause in the rule book on how to interpret these towns. Are they worth 10 apiece, or do they score the revenue of the hex they're in? Can someone point me to the section of the rules that covers this?

Thanks much.
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Mark G.
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We played that those 2 dot towns pay at the revenue labeled on the respective grey areas, indeed making them high revenue. The trade off is that the token locations are not attractive for major companies.

It would be nice to hear the official ruling on this question.
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Lucas Wan
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Rule 1.2.4 suggests that these are meant to be counted at full off-board value.

1.2.4 The track between Merthyr Tydfil and Pontypool is pre printed. A train can run from Newport to Pontypool
and then terminate off-board at Merthyr Tydfil but cannot run beyond Merthyr Tydfil (i.e. on to Cardiff).
Similarly, a train can run from Cardiff to Merthyr Tydfil and then terminate off board at Pontypool, but cannot
run beyond Pontypool (i.e. on to Newport).
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Jonathan Anderson
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Thank you Lucas. That is the section I was missing. It seems rather conclusive, based on that section, that the small town is considered the same revenue location as the adjacent city.
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Jonathan Anderson
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I do not have the rules in front of me, but someone brought to my attention this line:

5.8.6 Grey coloured off board locations are equivalent to large cities.

It appears that the representation as small towns on the map is at odds with 5.8.6 stating that there are no off board small towns. So these two 'dits' count the full revenue, but they are cities, so you cannot run them with an L-train.
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Mark G.
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physicssquirrel wrote:

It appears that the representation as small towns on the map is at odds with 5.8.6 stating that there are no off board small towns. So these two 'dits' count the full revenue, but they are cities, so you cannot run them with an L-train.


We must not have read carefully enough. Thanks for this.
 
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Simon Cutforth
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The official ruling is that the dot towns as illustrated are NOT in fact dot towns, they are off board connections to the regular cities in the hexes.
M20 and M21 can run to but not through each others home station. The rules are supposed to say this, and almost do (rule 1.2.4). Close but no banana! This is then supposed to imply that the track leads to the cities, not to a dot town, but an explicit note would have been better. Close again, but no banana!
It does make the revenue from M20 and M21, with an L train a bit lower, but they run pretty well with a 2T. They are NOT exciting minor companies!

What happened on the map is I had a graphic that I used in play testing for about 4 years (I started in 2010, so 6 years in the making). Then Bob Lecuyer created a similar, but different graphic for the cyber board version. Then Scott Peterson created a different graphic again for the prototype release of the game. Some of the play testers, when using the prototype issue, thought that Scott's graphic was a little odd (my original was worse by the way, which is why it got changed). So at the last minute it was changed again to the current release.

This is a case of a last minute production image change not being carefully looked at and having unintended consequences. I knew what the graphic represented and just didn't see that it so obviously looks like two dot towns. So, my bad, apologies to all. Imagine that the graphic shows an off board arrow rather than a grey zone dot town. And don't bid so high on these minors next time you play!
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Jim Allard
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Thanks for the clarification.

With regards to the L Train and running M20 or M21. If the 'dit' is a city, then wouldn't this mean that an L train can't be run? Or is it allowed that an L train can run just one city and does not need a route to a town?

JimA
 
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Tucker Taylor
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JimA759 wrote:
With regards to the L Train and running M20 or M21. If the 'dit' is a city, then wouldn't this mean that an L train can't be run? Or is it allowed that an L train can run just one city and does not need a route to a town?

Per 5.13.4: L (local) trains operate in a city which contains a station token of the owning company. They can additionally run to a single small station, but are not required to do so.

 
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Jim Allard
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JazzFish wrote:
JimA759 wrote:
With regards to the L Train and running M20 or M21. If the 'dit' is a city, then wouldn't this mean that an L train can't be run? Or is it allowed that an L train can run just one city and does not need a route to a town?

Per 5.13.4: L (local) trains operate in a city which contains a station token of the owning company. They can additionally run to a single small station, but are not required to do so.



Thank you very much; I think I've got it now..

JimA
 
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Jim Allard
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As a follow-on to this discussion.

Since the dits are actually cities (valued at the off-board values) and are terminal points; I'm wondering if, with a sharp curve in Newport, a 6 train could run - Merthyr-Tidfil to Pontypool(city) to Newport to Cardiff to Merthyr-Tidfil(city) to Pontypool - ?

Or is the Merthyr-Tidfil (or Pontypool) terminated point considered the same as the tokenable city space?

JimA
 
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Jonathan Anderson
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Thank you Simon for the explanation and clarification!

My one nagging question is this: Can the 20, which is in Pontypool, run a train from Pontypool to Merthyr to Cardiff, so long as this train indeed terminates in Pontypool on one end? It is clear that the 21 can run this route, but does the Pontypool token allow running this route?

Likewise, can the #2 minor run a 3-train starting in the Highlands through the CR home, and then out onto the board?
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Simon Cutforth
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Your proposed 6 train route includes Merthyr Tydfill and Pontypool twice, so is illegal - the run from one to the other is an offboard link to the token space / city
 
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Simon Cutforth
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I think the rules are actually clear on this - a train cannot run from Pontypool to Merthyr and beyond - it is an off board terminus. Ditto in reverse.

The graphic for Glasgow is much better though - Minor #2 can run into Glasgow from its off board link and then can run out of Glasgow.
 
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Antero Kuusi
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For companies that don't have token in Pontypool or Merthyr the rules are clear, but it's not entirely clear how it works with tokens. Namely, if a company has a token in one, is it considered to have token only on the route that runs as drawn or is it also considered to have a token on the route that terminates in the hex.

Pontypool - Merthyr - Cardiff is obviously a legal route, but does a token in Pontypool allow a train to run the route? Or do you need to have a token in Merthyr or Cardiff to run that route?
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Jim Allard
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Lime Turtle wrote:
Your proposed 6 train route includes Merthyr Tydfill and Pontypool twice, so is illegal - the run from one to the other is an offboard link to the token space / city


Thank you, that was what I was trying to make clear. The dit is considered the tokenable city - the same location.

On a different note; what is the purpose of the daggers in places like Dover or Liverpool or Barrow? Is this just to allow various tiles to be laid? Or do they serve some other purpose?

JimA
 
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Eric Brosius
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JimA759 wrote:
On a different note; what is the purpose of the daggers in places like Dover or Liverpool or Barrow? Is this just to allow various tiles to be laid? Or do they serve some other purpose?

Perhaps they are for use if someone dumps a company on you?

arrrh
 
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Simon Cutforth
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See rule 5.8.7

 
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Simon Cutforth
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pyton wrote:
For companies that don't have token in Pontypool or Merthyr the rules are clear, but it's not entirely clear how it works with tokens. Namely, if a company has a token in one, is it considered to have token only on the route that runs as drawn or is it also considered to have a token on the route that terminates in the hex.

Pontypool - Merthyr - Cardiff is obviously a legal route, but does a token in Pontypool allow a train to run the route? Or do you need to have a token in Merthyr or Cardiff to run that route?


This is why the graphic was difficult to draw! Whether you have a token there or not, you can run off board from one to the other. And irrespective of whether you have a token there or not, if you start on one side and run via the off board link to the other side, you can't continue the route beyond.

The comparison of the link from minor 2 to Glasgow has track that allows any one starting in the highlands to run into and through Glasgow. I think this graphic is intuitive, but I've still not worked out what the graphic for M20 & M21 should look like.

 
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Dave Berry
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Lime Turtle wrote:
What happened on the map is I had a graphic that I used in play testing for about 4 years (I started in 2010, so 6 years in the making). Then Bob Lecuyer created a similar, but different graphic for the cyber board version. Then Scott Peterson created a different graphic again for the prototype release of the game. Some of the play testers, when using the prototype issue, thought that Scott's graphic was a little odd (my original was worse by the way, which is why it got changed). So at the last minute it was changed again to the current release.

This is a case of a last minute production image change not being carefully looked at and having unintended consequences. I knew what the graphic represented and just didn't see that it so obviously looks like two dot towns. So, my bad, apologies to all. Imagine that the graphic shows an off board arrow rather than a grey zone dot town. And don't bid so high on these minors next time you play!

Will the graphic design be changed for future copies of the game?
 
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Jim Allard
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I'm still trying to fully understand.

If a company has a token in Merthyr Tydfil, and without any other tokens on the board and a yellow city tile placed in Newport and running two separate trains (say two 3-trains) - could I run Pontypool-Merthyr Tydfil-Cardiff and also run Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypool-Newport?

JimA
 
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Simon Cutforth
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gameon39481 wrote:
Lime Turtle wrote:
pyton wrote:
For companies that don't have token in Pontypool or Merthyr the rules are clear, but it's not entirely clear how it works with tokens. Namely, if a company has a token in one, is it considered to have token only on the route that runs as drawn or is it also considered to have a token on the route that terminates in the hex.

Pontypool - Merthyr - Cardiff is obviously a legal route, but does a token in Pontypool allow a train to run the route? Or do you need to have a token in Merthyr or Cardiff to run that route?


This is why the graphic was difficult to draw! Whether you have a token there or not, you can run off board from one to the other. And irrespective of whether you have a token there or not, if you start on one side and run via the off board link to the other side, you can't continue the route beyond.

The comparison of the link from minor 2 to Glasgow has track that allows any one starting in the highlands to run into and through Glasgow. I think this graphic is intuitive, but I've still not worked out what the graphic for M20 & M21 should look like.



On the Yahoo group Jonathan suggested using offboard arrow-style arrows

<---
--->

instead of the current Swansea-style pre-printed track icon

|---
---|

I thought that was a really good suggestion.



Yes it is. And sooooo very similar to the original graphic that I started with. But not the same, it seems that some changes make it clearer for some, but less clear for others. And other changes the opposite...
 
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Simon Cutforth
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daveberry wrote:
Lime Turtle wrote:
What happened on the map is I had a graphic that I used in play testing for about 4 years (I started in 2010, so 6 years in the making). Then Bob Lecuyer created a similar, but different graphic for the cyber board version. Then Scott Peterson created a different graphic again for the prototype release of the game. Some of the play testers, when using the prototype issue, thought that Scott's graphic was a little odd (my original was worse by the way, which is why it got changed). So at the last minute it was changed again to the current release.

This is a case of a last minute production image change not being carefully looked at and having unintended consequences. I knew what the graphic represented and just didn't see that it so obviously looks like two dot towns. So, my bad, apologies to all. Imagine that the graphic shows an off board arrow rather than a grey zone dot town. And don't bid so high on these minors next time you play!

Will the graphic design be changed for future copies of the game?


Yes, I believe that Scott may halve already changed it, if not he is intending to. He also said that he would load an overlay up to his website for those that want to print the revised graphic
 
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Simon Cutforth
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JimA759 wrote:
I'm still trying to fully understand.

If a company has a token in Merthyr Tydfil, and without any other tokens on the board and a yellow city tile placed in Newport and running two separate trains (say two 3-trains) - could I run Pontypool-Merthyr Tydfil-Cardiff and also run Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypool-Newport?

JimA


For your example, say M21 has a token in Merthyr-Tydfil.
It can run a train from Merthyr-Tydfil to Pontypool, but it must stop there and cannot run beyond it.
It could also run a train from Merthyr-Tydfil, to Cardiff, to Newport and then to Pontypool. Assuming that the correct tile was in Newport.
It cannot visit any station more than once with a train, so the train doing the loop could not visit Merthyr-Tydfil a second time (if it was a 5 train).
So your 2 nr 3 trains would run as a 2 and a 3: 3#1(running as a 2) Merthyr-Tydfil to Pontypool and must stop. 3#2 (running as a 3) Merthyr-Tydfil to Cardiff to Newport (or Swansea). There is an issue with train limits, but this is a hypothetical...

 
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Jim Allard
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Well, now I'm more confused than ever.

With a token in Merthyr-Tydfil can I not run a three train from Pontypool thru Merthyr-Tydfil to Cardiff?

JimA
 
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