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Subject: Lateral Group Transfer & Individual Transfer Oddities rss

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Gethyn Edwards
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Hi all

Had a game with my son last night (yay!) and he raised an interesting question about lateral transfers.

Basically he wondered why it was relatively simple to shift a whole group sideways but relatively hard (and super dangerous for the transferring soldier) to move single men between two groups.

Plus there's the thing where two entire groups can swap IDs by simultaneously moving past each other sideways...but if they want to merge into a single group they have to do it man by man..?

And then there's the other thing where a group consisting of a single guy would suffer +1 to incoming fire when he's moving...but if that same soldier tried to transfer into another group he'd effectively get penalised for moving by...+2..?

I'm not arguing for house rules or anything of that sort, and I can see the gameplay requirement for this (you probably don't want single men leaping around the battlefield with gay abandon, or new groups forming or splitting up too simply and regularly). The thing is, most of Up Front's seeming weirdness actually makes perfect sense in its own terms but this area puzzles me. So I was wondering - is there something historical/practical that all this lateral movement funkiness might be simulating?

Any thoughts?

G
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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nyhteg wrote:
Basically he wondered why it was relatively simple to shift a whole group sideways but relatively hard (and super dangerous for the transferring soldier) to move single men between two groups.

If you want a simple abstract answer, I would say "command". Telling Shifty that he is now taking orders from Chauncey (Over There Somewhere) is as much work as getting all your guys to move Over There Somewhere.
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Gethyn Edwards
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Yeah, maybe. Perhaps a degree of extra coordination is needed.

Not sure what makes a single guy moving more vulnerable than a bunch of guys moving though. Fewer eyes on the enemy?
 
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Richard Irving
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I don't have any reason other than "That's what the rules say..."

Other than possibly making a +2 TEM for exposure of the transferring man was more expedient than trying to include rules for finding the friendly group, approaching it without accidentally taking friendly fire, command control issues "Johnny, it's me, Smitty.", etc.
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Martin Gallo
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I worried about it early on but long ago gave up. Every game I have ever played has had at least one head scratching moment; this has always been it for me. I love the game despite this quirk.

The other quirk is been relative range counting up. Would have Ben easy to do it the other way, but it is easy to resolve. It just looks funny.
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Gethyn Edwards
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I always introduce the range chits as 'distance from where you started'and RR as a measure of 'closeness'. Seems to help people get their heads round the ideas, anyway.

But,yeah. Lateral movement stuff is very much in the category of "it's just the rules". I think I can forgive that.
 
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Richard Irving
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martimer wrote:
I worried about it early on but long ago gave up. Every game I have ever played has had at least one head scratching moment; this has always been it for me. I love the game despite this quirk.

The other quirk is been relative range counting up. Would have Ben easy to do it the other way, but it is easy to resolve. It just looks funny.


The ill-fated kickstarter version was to have distance the following formula:

Distance = 5 - (Sum of Range Chits)
Use Absolute value if >0 (i.e. |-1| = 1),
Adding 1 for lateral distance (i.e. more a single letter apart),
Max value of 5 for firing purposes


Advantages:
- Makes 0 = close, 5 = far away.

Disadvantages:
Some game rules become really complicated:
- Retrograde: Moving to Distance >5 to nearest group is prohibited, etc.

- Firing boxed ordnance from AFV/IG: Currently add RR to effect. under these rules you'd have to subtract it (also Boxed Effect Number of every weapon would need to be modified.)

- Night scenarios: Currently observation is done by drawing an RNC: 0-RR = sighted enemy and can fire at it. With distance, it becomes 0 - (5-distance)

-


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John David Galt
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rri1 wrote:
The ill-fated kickstarter version was to have distance the following formula:

Distance = 5 - (Sum of Range Chits)
Use Absolute value if >0 (i.e. |-1| = 1),
Adding 1 for lateral distance (i.e. more a single letter apart),
Max value of 5 for firing purposes

I think the "Use absolute value" line is wrong and I would leave it out. If your group A is at RC 2 and mine is at RC -3, the distance between them is 6 (and I can't back up that far unless you had another group closer to mine when I did).
 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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jdgalt wrote:
rri1 wrote:
The ill-fated kickstarter version was to have distance the following formula:

Distance = 5 - (Sum of Range Chits)
Use Absolute value if >0 (i.e. |-1| = 1),
Adding 1 for lateral distance (i.e. more a single letter apart),
Max value of 5 for firing purposes

I think the "Use absolute value" line is wrong and I would leave it out. If your group A is at RC 2 and mine is at RC -3, the distance between them is 6 (and I can't back up that far unless you had another group closer to mine when I did).

Use the absolute value AFTER the full calculation, i.e. two groups at RR 3 (new system) would have a distance of 5 - (3 + 3) = 5 - 6 = -1 --> absolute value = 1
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Richard Irving
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jdgalt wrote:
rri1 wrote:
The ill-fated kickstarter version was to have distance the following formula:

Distance = 5 - (Sum of Range Chits)
Use Absolute value if >0 (i.e. |-1| = 1),
Adding 1 for lateral distance (i.e. more a single letter apart),
Max value of 5 for firing purposes

I think the "Use absolute value" line is wrong and I would leave it out. If your group A is at RC 2 and mine is at RC -3, the distance between them is 6 (and I can't back up that far unless you had another group closer to mine when I did).


No, it is absolutely correct!

Take German Group A & Russian Group B, both advancing 3 forward.

Distance 5 - (3+3) = -1 Absolute value makes it 1.

It replaces the "10 - Total" rule in the original game.
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Grant Linneberg
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rri1 wrote:
martimer wrote:
I worried about it early on but long ago gave up. Every game I have ever played has had at least one head scratching moment; this has always been it for me. I love the game despite this quirk.

The other quirk is been relative range counting up. Would have Ben easy to do it the other way, but it is easy to resolve. It just looks funny.


The ill-fated kickstarter version was to have distance the following formula:

Distance = 5 - (Sum of Range Chits)
Use Absolute value if >0 (i.e. |-1| = 1),
Adding 1 for lateral distance (i.e. more a single letter apart),
Max value of 5 for firing purposes


Advantages:
- Makes 0 = close, 5 = far away.

Disadvantages:
Some game rules become really complicated:
- Retrograde: Moving to Distance >5 to nearest group is prohibited, etc.

- Firing boxed ordnance from AFV/IG: Currently add RR to effect. under these rules you'd have to subtract it (also Boxed Effect Number of every weapon would need to be modified.)

- Night scenarios: Currently observation is done by drawing an RNC: 0-RR = sighted enemy and can fire at it. With distance, it becomes 0 - (5-distance)

-




The only silver lining about that KS failing is that it didn't allow them to screw up the rules like this. In the same vein, I'm happy to have the original cards with the weapons printed on them instead of the weapons as chits system.

 
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Mark J
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Well wouldn't you have more courage and confidence firing at a guy running on his own versus a group of men moving?
 
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Gethyn Edwards
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I like this answer a lot! thumbsup
 
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