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Subject: Do you think it's fair to kick someone out over a rules question? rss

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Darian Tucker
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I'm just curious to see what the response will be. I won't be personally offended if you think what I did was a bannable offense, but I personally think if this happened to me, I would feel very immature for kicking someone out over it.

I was playing Game of Thrones with a group of people a couple of weeks ago. A situation came up where I was Tyrion Lannister going against Balon Greyjoy. I bounced him back to Greyjoy's hand. Greyjoy then played Aeron and tried to bring Balon out again. I argued that he couldn't because Tyrion says it "cancels the card" and if he didn't have another leader to play (he didn't), he had to stick with Aeron. He thought it was fine to play Aeron and bring Balon back. We couldn't come to an agreement, so I asked to pause the game while we looked the answer up in the FAQ. Unfortunately, it's not in there, so I asked to resolve the situation with a coin flip. Greyjoy won the toss and we moved on.

Apparently, this action pissed the other players off enough that they all surreptitiously agreed ahead of time to work against me in last week's game. You can read more about that here. On Wednesday, the group organizer sent me a message telling me not to come back. He said it had nothing to do with last week's game and was all because of the rules question from two weeks ago.

Personally, I think their response was very immature. However, I'm curious if anyone else feels differently and would consider stopping play to consult an FAQ a bannable offense.
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Sam Carroll
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Sounds to me like an over-reaction, particularly since he agreed to a coin flip and then won said flip. I would not expect any hard feelings based on what your account of the situation. Of course, I wasn't there and don't know how the argument went down; tones of voice, etc.

On the other hand, it sounds like you might have been the new player in the group, in which case it would behoove you not to make waves, at least until you're an established member.
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Some people actually don't like rules lawyers, and would rather play wrong in harmony than correctly with discord.

Pete (finds this baffling, but to each their own)
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No idea. Maybe they took it as rules lawyering and decided that's not the kind of group they want to have, maybe you've been rubbing folks the wrong way for a long time and this was the last straw, maybe the issue wasn't raised as innocuously as you describe it, maybe they didn't appreciate the stoppage in play. Maybe all of those, maybe none of those.

But it would surprise me if they kicked you out specifically and only for having raised the question. It could well be that the organizer wanted to keep the explanation brief, rather than go through a laundry list of all the reasons they don't want you back. Happens a lot in breakups of all sorts. You can dwell or you can move on and find another group better suited to your personality.
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plezercruz wrote:
Some people actually don't like rules lawyers, and would rather play wrong in harmony than correctly with discord.

Pete (finds this baffling, but to each their own)


A fair point. The situation in question was pretty important, though. It was basically the difference between me winning the game and having to spend a few turns regrouping, so I wanted to make sure we got it right. If it had been a more inconsequential battle, I probably would have just rolled with it and looked it up after the fact.

I did find the answer on BGG after the fact and we did end up playing it correctly, but it was certainly confusing. In most FFG games, cancelling a card, even if it returns to a hand, means it can't be played again as part of the same action. Unfortunately, they should have probably used a different term like "return" or "send back". There was also a line about not being able to use a House Card's ability twice in the same turn, so I did argue whether Balon could use his ability to drop my card's strength to 0 a second time even if we did allow playing him again. That was the real situation that needed the coin flip.

As to how the argument went, it was pretty calm. There was actually another player at the table who could see my side of it, so it wasn't like it was me against everyone else. It was a 2 on 2 stalemate. The organizer was the one who asked us to look it up in the FAQ in the first place. So that's why I found it really petty when they kicked me out. He didn't mind, but apparently everyone else (including those not even playing) did.
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FWIW: I don't know the game or the specific rule.

In general, to me it seems extremely normal and unremarkable to pause a game to check a rule for an unclear situation. For the rest of the group to all get upset about such an occurence in general seems utterly bizarre to me. To ban someone over it is even more bizarre.

(Not immature, but bizarre; heck, even when I was an immature teenager, we would pause to look up rules if we were unsure about something!)


The only reason I could imagine getting upset about checking rules or discussing what a rule meant, etc, would be if in this specific instance everyone else believed the rule was blatantly clear and obvious and unambiguous, so that someone was being ridiculously troublesome and obtuse and wasting time by insisting (whether from intentional sleaziness or from sheer stubborn stupidity) that the rule means "X" when everyone agrees that it clearly indubitably means "not X".

(To be clear, I am not saying that this is what happened in your case. As I said, I don't know this game or the specific rule.)

(Edited to add: I see from your crossposts that this was not the case.)


I wonder whether the group simply didn't enjoy playing with you (for whatever reason) and this rule disagreement was simply a convenient pretext for them to give you the boot. But I really don't know.
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plezercruz wrote:
Some people actually don't like rules lawyers, and would rather play wrong in harmony than correctly with discord.

Pete (finds this baffling, but to each their own)
Yep, and tend to really get pissed at them.

Of course it may also be "HOUSE RULEEISM"

But the fact the OP is

Quote:
starting to hate this game


Tells me it is not just the rules lawyering, but a general attitude whilst playing the game.
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I'm just curious to see what the response will be. I won't be personally offended if you think what I did was a bannable offense, but I personally think if this happened to me, I would feel very immature for kicking someone out over it.

I was playing Game of Thrones with a group of people a couple of weeks ago. A situation came up where I was Tyrion Lannister going against Balon Greyjoy. I bounced him back to Greyjoy's hand. Greyjoy then played Aeron and tried to bring Balon out again. I argued that he couldn't because Tyrion says it "cancels the card" and if he didn't have another leader to play (he didn't), he had to stick with Aeron. He thought it was fine to play Aeron and bring Balon back. We couldn't come to an agreement, so I asked to pause the game while we looked the answer up in the FAQ. Unfortunately, it's not in there, so I asked to resolve the situation with a coin flip. Greyjoy won the toss and we moved on.

Apparently, this action pissed the other players off enough that they all surreptitiously agreed ahead of time to work against me in last week's game. You can read more about that here. On Wednesday, the group organizer sent me a message telling me not to come back. He said it had nothing to do with last week's game and was all because of the rules question from two weeks ago.

Personally, I think their response was very immature. However, I'm curious if anyone else feels differently and would consider stopping play to consult an FAQ a bannable offense.


Tough to say. Obviously we're only hearing your side of the story and as the storyteller you're more likely to lessen any hostile or disruptive attitude you may have displayed during the argument.

If you were polite and respectful when you made the argument, than yes, I guess that is immature of them. If you were not however or if you even have the slightest doubt about your attitude during the argument . . . then I guess they may have had a right.

At the end of the day I have no idea what it's like to play regularly with strangers. I think that if I found one person wasn't really gelling with the rest of the group I wouldn't hesitate to kick them out, fair or not fair. I'm there to have fun.
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Chris
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Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the series of events as you've described them. On it's own, I don't see this situation as a problem, but I have 2 thoughts. 1 - Maybe they read your other post where you called one of the players "Pouty Mcasshat", and 2 - is there a pattern of behavior where rules questions come up a lot where you're involved?

From reading your posts over the years, you don't come across that way to me, but possibly those could be contributing factors? Are you playing to have a good time, or are you playing to win? Does that align with your group?

Just some ideas, what you've described seems reasonable, but we might not have all the context.
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alenen wrote:
1 - Maybe they read your other post where you called one of the players "Pouty Mcasshat"

Ding, ding, you may be a winner!
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Darian Tucker
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dpbush wrote:
No idea. Maybe they took it as rules lawyering and decided that's not the kind of group they want to have, maybe you've been rubbing folks the wrong way for a long time and this was the last straw, maybe the issue wasn't raised as innocuously as you describe it, maybe they didn't appreciate the stoppage in play. Maybe all of those, maybe none of those.

But it would surprise me if they kicked you out specifically and only for having raised the question. It could well be that the organizer wanted to keep the explanation brief, rather than go through a laundry list of all the reasons they don't want you back. Happens a lot in breakups of all sorts. You can dwell or you can move on and find another group better suited to your personality.


Oh, I'm not dwelling. I had only gone to this group for two weeks before the situation came up. Besides, the organizer himself was the one who suggested looking it up in an FAQ. When he told me I was kicked out, he admitted he himself was shocked the other players had gone that way, but that he wanted to choose his friends over me. I thought that was sort of crass, because it sounded like his suggestion caused the issue, but he was neither apologetic nor willing to talk his friends out of it.
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Darian Tucker
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russ wrote:
alenen wrote:
1 - Maybe they read your other post where you called one of the players "Pouty Mcasshat"

Ding, ding, you may be a winner!


Hehe, I had wondered about that, but I mentioned the post to the organizer to see if that had been the issue and he said he wasn't aware of it. When he read it, he admitted it was not an unfair description of what had happened, but that that game had gone the way it did because the well was already poisoned.
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Darian Tucker
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Quote:
I wonder whether the group simply didn't enjoy playing with you (for whatever reason) and this rule disagreement was simply a convenient pretext for them to give you the boot. But I really don't know.


This is probably the most likely answer. The group is pretty insular and seemed to play the game without a lot of alliances or backstabbing. I was table talking to try and get them to do it. I admitted that maybe there was just a clash of play styles, but come on, playing this game without table talk would be like playing Cosmic Encounter without alliances or Battlestar Galactica without Cylons. It's a pretty damn integral part of the game.
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Chris
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The only other thought I have is that Game of Thrones is maybe not a great game to play with a new group of people who are still forming their opinions of you
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Seems that there is some nuances to your interactions with the group that either you are missing or aren't revealing. Not that the reason is good or bad to boot you, but there is a reason.

Typically, positive interactions with people rarely lead to such a result, so there's that.

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I gotta guess there's more factors to result in the solution being a ban. I'd guess your too serious of a gamer for them and they don't know how to accommodate that so they don't want to play with you. I'm gonna guess by your other post you got too passionate about the game and it ruined everyone's good time.

Yes its immature but I see it immature as it seems their avoiding telling you the problem, banning you might just be the most clean way to deal with a possible problem. They are doing their best at avoiding a confrontation that would probably solve nothing. So as far as their choices go their action was probably their most reasonable action.

Everyone is different, it would be weird if everyone was your friend.

ahhhh, I miss my college games where it was normal for one of us to flip a chair and swear till our throat was raw just for one of the opposing player attacked you instead of someone else. But we all knew it was in good fun and would be forgiven once the game ended. It takes time to get everyone on the same level.
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broken clock wrote:
SparkingConduit wrote:
I'm just curious to see what the response will be. I won't be personally offended if you think what I did was a bannable offense, but I personally think if this happened to me, I would feel very immature for kicking someone out over it.

I was playing Game of Thrones with a group of people a couple of weeks ago. A situation came up where I was Tyrion Lannister going against Balon Greyjoy. I bounced him back to Greyjoy's hand. Greyjoy then played Aeron and tried to bring Balon out again. I argued that he couldn't because Tyrion says it "cancels the card" and if he didn't have another leader to play (he didn't), he had to stick with Aeron. He thought it was fine to play Aeron and bring Balon back. We couldn't come to an agreement, so I asked to pause the game while we looked the answer up in the FAQ. Unfortunately, it's not in there, so I asked to resolve the situation with a coin flip. Greyjoy won the toss and we moved on.

Apparently, this action pissed the other players off enough that they all surreptitiously agreed ahead of time to work against me in last week's game. You can read more about that here. On Wednesday, the group organizer sent me a message telling me not to come back. He said it had nothing to do with last week's game and was all because of the rules question from two weeks ago.

Personally, I think their response was very immature. However, I'm curious if anyone else feels differently and would consider stopping play to consult an FAQ a bannable offense.


Tough to say. Obviously we're only hearing your side of the story and as the storyteller you're more likely to lessen any hostile or disruptive attitude you may have displayed during the argument.

If you were polite and respectful when you made the argument, than yes, I guess that is immature of them. If you were not however or if you even have the slightest doubt about your attitude during the argument . . . then I guess they may have had a right.

At the end of the day I have no idea what it's like to play regularly with strangers. I think that if I found one person wasn't really gelling with the rest of the group I wouldn't hesitate to kick them out, fair or not fair. I'm there to have fun.


And I don't disagree with you. I agree with maintaining a group's integrity. For instance, if someone came into my group and tried to get us all to stop our bad language or crude jokes, they probably wouldn't last long. We don't mind that kind of language, so if an outsider just came in and demanded it, he would be met with apathy.

However, I do accede to reasonable requests. One of our most loyal members started off his second session by asking us not to use terms like "rape" or homophobic slurs unnecessarily. I saw no reason not to agree to that request, so we haven't done it since.

I certainly don't mind their decision. I'm just surprised by it. I don't know if he's hiding the real reason or if it really was over just the rules question, but apparently they wanted to kick me out two weeks ago and that's when he asked them to give me another chance. Most of the table talk and such didn't occur until last week's game, so I don't think that could have been the reason.

Oh, well. Let's focus less on my specific situation and more on whether this seems like a reasonable course of action or not in general.
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If I were in a group that tended to play Game of Thrones a lot, I would do whatever I could go get kicked out. They did you a favor.
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SparkingConduit wrote:
broken clock wrote:
SparkingConduit wrote:
I'm just curious to see what the response will be. I won't be personally offended if you think what I did was a bannable offense, but I personally think if this happened to me, I would feel very immature for kicking someone out over it.

I was playing Game of Thrones with a group of people a couple of weeks ago. A situation came up where I was Tyrion Lannister going against Balon Greyjoy. I bounced him back to Greyjoy's hand. Greyjoy then played Aeron and tried to bring Balon out again. I argued that he couldn't because Tyrion says it "cancels the card" and if he didn't have another leader to play (he didn't), he had to stick with Aeron. He thought it was fine to play Aeron and bring Balon back. We couldn't come to an agreement, so I asked to pause the game while we looked the answer up in the FAQ. Unfortunately, it's not in there, so I asked to resolve the situation with a coin flip. Greyjoy won the toss and we moved on.

Apparently, this action pissed the other players off enough that they all surreptitiously agreed ahead of time to work against me in last week's game. You can read more about that here. On Wednesday, the group organizer sent me a message telling me not to come back. He said it had nothing to do with last week's game and was all because of the rules question from two weeks ago.

Personally, I think their response was very immature. However, I'm curious if anyone else feels differently and would consider stopping play to consult an FAQ a bannable offense.


Tough to say. Obviously we're only hearing your side of the story and as the storyteller you're more likely to lessen any hostile or disruptive attitude you may have displayed during the argument.

If you were polite and respectful when you made the argument, than yes, I guess that is immature of them. If you were not however or if you even have the slightest doubt about your attitude during the argument . . . then I guess they may have had a right.

At the end of the day I have no idea what it's like to play regularly with strangers. I think that if I found one person wasn't really gelling with the rest of the group I wouldn't hesitate to kick them out, fair or not fair. I'm there to have fun.


And I don't disagree with you. I agree with maintaining a group's integrity. For instance, if someone came into my group and tried to get us all to stop our bad language or crude jokes, they probably wouldn't last long. We don't mind that kind of language, so if outsider just came in and demanded it, he would be met with apathy.

However, I do accede to reasonable requests. One of our most loyal members started off his second session by asking us not to use terms like "rape" or homophobic slurs unnecessarily. I saw no reason not to agree to that request, so we haven't done it since.

I certainly don't mind their decision. I'm just surprised by it. I don't know if he's hiding the real reason or if it really was over just the rules question, but apparently they wanted to kick me out two weeks ago and that's when he asked them to give me another chance. Most of the table talk and such didn't occur until last week's game, so I don't think that could have been the reason.

Oh, well. Let's focus less on my specific situation and more on whether this seems like a reasonable course of action or not in general.


It is intellectually interesting to understand their motives, but it won't help in your future interactions with another group. Spend time reviewing your actions. Then extrapolate them to other F2F and internets interactions that you have had. Identify your liabilities. Put in some mechanisms that reduce those liabilities.

That is your only practical path forward.
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alenen wrote:
The only other thought I have is that Game of Thrones is maybe not a great game to play with a new group of people who are still forming their opinions of you


Well, you're not wrong. I brought other games to play, but apparently this group has been playing nothing but for months. It's basically their lifestyle game. That's why I was relatively shocked that they don't do practically any table talk or alliances. It seems pretty anathema to the theme and mechanics.

They weren't interested in playing anything else. Even on the second meeting, when we had ten players, they decided to have the 4 player group split up and play Game of Thrones instead of anything I brought. Unfortunately, the people who were playing were either completely new or had only played once (like myself), so the game was pretty slow and we had to stop and look up rules a lot.
 
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pfctsqr wrote:
If I were in a group that tended to play Game of Thrones a lot, I would do whatever I could go get kicked out. They did you a favor.


Why would you be going in the first place?
 
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DoomTurtle wrote:
pfctsqr wrote:
If I were in a group that tended to play Game of Thrones a lot, I would do whatever I could go get kicked out. They did you a favor.


Why would you be going in the first place?


Free food.
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It's either:

1. You ran into a bizarre group who really found the rules question distasteful, for whatever reason. We've all played with groups that have a real different view on gaming at least once in our gaming careers.

or

2. It was something else and the group leader just chose an easy explanation rather than going into something more contentious.

To answer your question, no, I don't think it's fair (reasonable, sensible) to kick someone out over a rules question.
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SparkingConduit wrote:
...apparently this group has been playing nothing but for months. It's basically their lifestyle game.


Given that situation I'd guess that your ejection had more to do with group dynamics than it did with the rules question. I suspect that there's one dominant personality who pretty much runs the show, and when you questioned that person's authority you pretty much assured that you weren't going to be invited back. Frankly, I think you're better off not being part of such a gathering of immature "Pouty McAsshats."
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Read your whole post on the session and I can't tell just from reading. If you are indeed being polite and not annoying while playing, then I'd say the other players are at fault. I don't know why but I am fairly certain they hold some antagonism toward you.

When I was younger, I used to play SSBM with a group of "friends". The host would do things like put me on a team of 1 v 3 (though in my credit, I did win 1 of those many 1V3's, very proud of that) or up my handicap versus the others and just team up and target me all game, and it was clearly malicious, though not openly. He never targeted others as strongly and he didn't hesitate to try to damage me or set the others against me. I didn't like that and eventually left, and I think I was better for it. I extend to you the same advice if any group is doing something similar and you're similarly ostracized.
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