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Subject: Review 7th edition rss

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Nundo Bolas
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Introduction:
Last time I played this, was at least ten years ago.
I don't remember much, except that the point system (unit cost) wasn't balanced. So we didn't play this very much.
I am not a GW hater. I love Warhammer Quest, and like Warhammer 40000 (2nd ed).


Battle of Skull Pass:
This is what brought me back after so many years; the box with all those cheap goblins. Can never have too many goblins I guess, so I got myself two boxes and sold the dwarves.


Scenario:
Orcs & Goblins: 4000points (my 2000 and a friend who also played 2000).
I had only 20 orcs, and the rest were goblins. (Battle for skull pass)
I also used two Giants from Descent, and a rock lobber (converted from a tea-spoon). My friend had an Orc army.

The enemy: 4000points (2000 skaven and 2000points Lizardmen)
Their army seemed to be about spellcasters, with Grey Seer & Slann.
The Skaven player also had a cannon that could shoot warp or lightning.

They set the table, but we had to set-up first.
The enemy placed some scenery on the edges of the table (we got two hills) and a church in the middle. There was only one forest, which means that our 15 spider riders wouldn't get much advantage from terrain ignoring moves. But we had some advantage by setting up our artillery on the hills...


Session:
1.
The first thing I noticed (and this bothered me) were the blocks of miniatures (units) that had a very slow movement. Most of my units didn't seem to move at all. And these blocks of miniatures weren't very individual. (It's as if placing five or six models + counters to count rank/number would do the trick too.)

2. This bizar slow movement seemed to be what all the in-game strategy was about. Which, again, bothered me. Because we had to debate several times with the other players about those silly 2inch corner measurements and other ridiculous aspects of movement.
It's as if these orcs were so concentrated on keeping formation, that they couldn't even hop over a rock or improvise.

3. This unit moving weirdness was getting even stranger, when my main unit (the orcs) couldn't charge the enemy! Because my own two Giants were blocking their way. Any sane or bloodthirsty game would allow my orcs to enter combat (can't the giants just step aside and let their green friends join?). Apparently not. Not in this abstract strategy game, where my orcs just stood around (waiting for something to die or move out of their way). And while they stood there, cursing those idiot designers at GW, they got incinerated by magicians and other pussies.

4. There is much less scenery in this game than Warhammer 40000, or most miniature wargame rules I played. The main reason for this, is the cumbersome nature of these neurotic formation-keeping troops (who need to test morale each turn for no apparent reason). However, this made the scenery-placement at the start of the game extremely crucial. Too crucial for my tastes. Especially when their poison dart shooting skinks entered a church. Now, I know scenery is always very important in this type of game, but they seem to function as obstackles, more than tactical points to take position in (or on).

5. The church deserves a different chapter all together. Because there aren't any real siege rules in this poor simulation of medieval combat.
We had surrounded this church with 3 Giants, but could not attack it. No, our giants had to walk around (while getting shot by these invincible church snipers), and the rules said we had to take this building with infantry.

Discussion soon erupted, because it wasn't clear if this building had two levels or just one. And three people were searching their rulebooks for siege rules, which weren't clearly explaining why a monster can't simply smash in a wall.
Again, as is traditional in this strategy game, we rolled dice to solve the problem. (They won, and the sniping skinks stayed.)

So, one giant soon died, and my unit of infantry goblins were on their way to siege a building that would grant us no strategic gain.

6. On my right flank, another absurd situation soon erupted. My goblins could not march (a double move) because they were within the radius of an enemy hidden in the woods. "Ok," I said and declared that I would charge this enemy.
But I could not charge them, because I couldn't see them.
(So, in other words: You know they're there, but you can't attack them. But, you can't ignore them either, even if they themselves cannot attack you from within this forest.)

7. Suddenly, my 2000points neighbour died. He was a more experienced player than me. His orcs couldn't beat Skaven Sensor whatever (forgot their name), and suddenly, I was alone on the battlefield.

8.
The final battle would now begin, and I had not lost too many troops. (This game is about characters and monsters, or magicians, not the soldiers... they're just plastic to fill up the gaps).
So what happened?
Nothing really. We just stood there, four turns in a row. My giants fighting the same 2 units they had charged three hours ago. And the real joke was this:
They were losing!
Because in Warhammer, you need to count points after each close-combat round. And that is about outnumbering the enemy or having a banner in your unit. So, when I killed 4 ratmen, and the ratmen didn't even scratch my giant; I would LOSE the combat.

Now I feel this is very important, if you wish to understand how frustrating it is for a sane gamer to play Warhammer.
The Giant, a huge monster, fights a group of much smaller mutated rats, with lower morale. (And slaves if I'm not mistaken!) The Giant kills four of them, and they cannot even wound him. Not one of these thirty soldiers!
But in Warhammer... he loses and they win.

9.
While this interesting game of dice-rolling and number crunching started to remind me of all those self-made rulesystems I had discarded because they looked too simple or felt too abstract (logical maybe?), one of the other players started packing up his models.
People around the table said it was over, and I guess they were right.
Their magic had been stronger than ours (even with our 7 dispell scrolls!), and their rule-lawyering had been more arrogant.



So what did I like about this game?

10. One mechanic I loved very much (and this seemed to be the only weapon in my army that actually hurt something), was my self-made (and popular) spoon-catapult. I liked this 'guess' weapon because you have to guess at what distance the enemy target is.

11. We have been decimated by magic, but I was afraid magic would be much more overpowered. (I had heard rumors.) Magic seemed to be way better than artillery, but our main force did reach the enemy, and I had feared otherwise.


Review:
A.
Warhammer is not about medieval combat. This is about magic weapons and strong characters. The strategy is about combinations in troop-selection, and ingame movement.

B.
It is slow and not fluid enough. (I felt trapped by the system.)
Not the session length disturbed me, or the down-time, and the frequent discussions about rules and interpretations of rules. The movement of these cumbersome slow behemoths was boring.

C.
A somehow very very slow game of chess, but with randomness everywhere, which somehow ridiculed the competitive nature that my fellow players had. It seemed to be about winning, and not about simulation, but failed at both. This somehow distracted me, and I quickly lost interest when it became clear that our legion didn't stand a chance.

D.
Also, because this system frequently fails at portraying realism, it destroys some of its visual appeal. (Who cares about painting 80 goblins, if the only ones who really matter are the front rank?)



So what score am I giving this game?


The game system gets a 1. (Reviewing this as I would review a boardgame.) And if this were just some boardgame I knew nothing about (ignoring the fact that it has a huge number of fans to play with), I would never touch it again.
But it gets a +1 because the miniature models are well-made.
Warhammer gets another +1 because their art, presentation and story are all fantastic.


My final conclusion;
Buy the models if you like them. Don't use their rules.
(Make your own, or try one of the many other systems on the market.)

BGG rating: 3/10
"Likely won't play this again, although could be convinced. Bad."
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Ethan McKinney
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Seven editions? What, fifth time's not the charm?
 
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Luca Iennaco
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Nice review.

GAWD wrote:
Sounds like you've just become another GW hater. Join the club.

Well, disliking a single game doesn't mean he hates the whole company (or all their products). In fact, I think he still appreciates WQ and 40k.

Personally, it's GW policy (more than their games) that really bothers me (reprint often everything, make obsolete old miniatures and books, "pump" strongly new games for a few months and then abandon them completely, etc.).
 
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Mick Weitz
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Too bad you had such a bad time. However, knowing the rules before playing such a game would help alleviate many of your issues with frustration.

Warhammer isn't for everyone. I am especially amused at those who moan and cry about painting all the miniatures...for me, that's the best part!

Good Gaming! Mick
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Hunter Shelburne
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A. Did you march move? If you are march moving, you're moving about 8 inches a turn with your regular goblins, more for chariots or mounted units. If you are on a recommended sized table, it takes very little time to get into combat.

B. Work on movement tactics, and try to work on your fast cavalry flanks, since you have SPider Riders that came with the BFSP. Those are moving 16(!) inche s aturn, how is THAT "slow behemoths"?

Either you have a very odd interpretation of moving slowly in the game, you are using way too big of a board, or you just didn't read the entire rulebook.

Half the problems you were encountering were your own movement tactics. If you read the rules, you would know what can and can't cahrge, and you need a clear path. Why would a unit of 7 foot tall orcs charge into a giant who is big, stupid and may fall on them? Thats even MORE uncharacteristic. Learn some movement tactics and then try it again, set up your charges better, combine charge, look at flanks, don't just run a bunch of blocks out on the field, and have a giant lumbering all over the place, blocking charges.
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Hunter Shelburne
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Neontek wrote:
Weapon wrote:

Half the problems you were encountering were your own movement tactics. If you read the rules, you would know what can and can't cahrge, and you need a clear path. Why would a unit of 7 foot tall orcs charge into a giant who is big, stupid and may fall on them? Thats even MORE uncharacteristic. Learn some movement tactics and then try it again, set up your charges better, combine charge, look at flanks, don't just run a bunch of blocks out on the field, and have a giant lumbering all over the place, blocking charges.


1.
Why do I need a clear path? Did the Celts care if they had a clear path?


2.
Why can't the Giants take a step to their left?
Why can't some of my orcs leave the unit formation?
Why can't the orcs, who don't fit between the Giants stay behind?
The rules aren't flexible enough.


3.
Quote:
"run a bunch of blocks out on the field, and have a giant lumbering all over the place,"
is what Orcs&Goblins are all about no?
+ Isn't that the fun of fantasy miniature warfare?


surprise
And just so you know;
The problem is not the fact that our side lost the game, even if I were a supreme strategic master of Warhammer, I would not be enjoying the game. Maybe enjoy winning, but not the game itself.


I never said anything about you losing, I didn't even read if you had won or not. I was just stating taht your tactics were unsound.

The amount of rules you want there would be a NIGHTMARE for GW rules teams to implement, not only would all the different situations expand the rulebook like 50 pages, it wouldn't make sense in a "regimental" wargame. You don't just have soldiers leave units, unless its some general or heroic person, even in a regular wargame. Why WOULD a Giant step aside? Its a gigantic beast, not really bound by the orcs, just happens to enjoy fighting. They don't control him! Why would he just step aside and let them take his kill, or even get NEAR him?

Orcs and Goblins are all about running big blocks out on the field, but with your unrealistic view of what a miniature game system like this can take in the rules, and the "flexibility" it should have, you just misused troops. If you have a Giant running around, make it to where he can combine charges with your other orcs and goblins, dont just run him out in front of a bunch of units and get mad when you can't somehow take some of your units, completely mess up a regiment, and attack.

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Hunter Shelburne
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Neontek wrote:
Weapon wrote:

but with your unrealistic view of what a miniature game system like this can take in the rules, and the "flexibility" it should have, you just misused troops.


1.Adding siege rules is unrealistic?

2.I believe you are missing the point, I'm not discussing the tactical possibilities of the unit-system, or my failure of using such possibilities. I'm stating that the unit-system is not flexible enough.
That unit size and shape should be adaptable (which it is to a certain degree, but at a very very slow pace), and that close combat situations shouldn't be as static as they are.

3.Warhammer 40000 feels more flexible and dynamic than Warhammer.
Do you agree or disagree?



1. Get the supplements, there ARE seige rules.

2. Unit size is perfectly adaptable, units don't just flip around on the fly! They have to take some time to reorganize what they are doing! It just takes a little bit of movement.

3. No. Warhammer 40K is MOVEMENT flexible, but style of play is something along the lines of "Shoot shoot shoot". There is NO good CC in that game, you CAN do it, but you will be outmatched by shooting. I can now kind of see how you see a unit based game is "unflexible", coming from a completely skirmishing unit game, that is completely based on shooting, not actual tactical movement.
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Jason Jullie
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Well, personally, I'd refrain from reviewing any game after simply one playing. That said, you point is still valid from a "intial impressions" perspective.

Warhammer is a tricky game to get into. In order to really get into the game, you have to spend days pouring over the rulebook and your army list. You can't treat it like a boardgame. You can't simply show up, have somone explain the rules in 30 minutes, and expect to have a good time. The game really thrives on the "experience" and "hobby" nature of it. Players really need to have a passion for the game and want to spend time outside of it crunching numbers with their army lists and reading rules.

Similiar to chess, with Warhammer, I spend at least as much time out of the game reading books/rules as I ever do playing. After any game, I sit down with my opponent, have a beer, and talk about the battle that we just had and what what wrong/right.

Warhammer isn't for everyone and I certainly see why it suffers on a "boardgame" site. Because it's not a board game. Its a hobby/mini game. A boardgame's strength is it's ability to bring a couple of players to a table, setup up some parameters in a timely fashion, run through some neat mechanics, and produce a winner in a decent ammount of time (depending on the game).

Hobby games are a much different animal than boardgames and to judge them in light of board games only diminishes their strengths and highlights their weaknesses. You might as well say that a monkey is a horrible bird because it really can't fly as good as a sparrow (if you get what I'm going at). Conversly, I might say that Puerto Rico is an awful hobby game because it gives me very little to do outside of the game itself.
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jeff immer
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I recently picked up skull pass as well. so I have some questions, comments:

It sounds to me like your looking for skirmish rules. If the units didn't act like dumb little clumps of men you'd be looking at one LONG game. If you're looking for orcs that act "smart" use the Warhammer skirmish rules! They're available here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammerskirmish/

That contains all the rules to play warhammer skirmish style as well as tons of free skirmish scenarios. Sounds more like what you're looking for.

As for siege rules, yeah it sucks, they don't give you siege rules with the tiny Battle for Skull Pass rulebook. However their website gives away a free .pdf version of siege rules, available here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/siege-rules/1/

I wouldn't say I LOVED the one game I've played so far either, but it was fun. The slow movement however has me stumped as my orcs were in close combat on turn two. Were you marching? The fact that you can't charge through units doesn't really bother me, but hey, if it bothers you make a house rule that units can charge through friendly units! The rulebook flat out encourages players to make up house rules and resolve lame rules issues on the spot; so do it!
 
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Les Marshall
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Wow! If I were going to review say, Advanced Squad Leader I probably wouldn't start with an advanced mega scenario. Trying to learn Warhammer rules during a 4000 point battle is difficult at best.

SPEED

Yes, the average movement of warhammer infantry units is 4 inches. However, units can march which doubles their speed. Given the 24 inch seperation between deployment zones in both games, you can reach the enemy zones in 3 turns minimum. (And you'll meet the enemy much quicker if they advance).

Of course, that ignores the giants which move 6/12 inches and cavalry which moves 7-9 inches or marches 14-18 inches. Flying units travel 20 inches.

PSYCHOLOGY

The morale tests you complain of are unique to orcs and goblins. The rule is called 'animosity' and it assumes that the aggressive and stupid greenskins often squabble amongst themselves rather than behaving as a well disciplined army. The offset is there are usually a LOT of them.

On the other hand all warhammer units have a unit psychology which can be triggered by numreous events like losing combat, taking heavy missile fire losses, being confronted by fear and terror causing beasties and, oh yeah, watching their mates run by them.

This means that on many occasions your troops don't fight to the last man but, run for the hills instead. That isn't often reflected in wargames.

CHARACTERS/MAGIC

Warhammer 6th and 7th edition rules work to limit character effectiveness. The new magic rules make spell casters risky to use as their magical attacks can go badly astray and missile troops can pick them off.

As for heroes and their magic weapons, it is often easy to avoid the tougher ones and/or pick them off. I have often seen tooled up heroes on dragons taken down early by heavy missile weapons. Combat is decided by 'resolution'. Resolution is gained by causing sounds, outnumbering, standard bearers, superior weight of numbers and multiple ranks. A charachter acting alone can be easily swamped in this game.

NITPICKS

The solution to being blocked by your own giants is to not put them in the way. Or, you could charge with the giants also. The game is, after all, about manuever.

As for the march blocking, this is consistent with reality. In Napoleonic and American Civil War battles, massed troops usually formed column to march quickly. Skirmishers would be sent out to threaten these columns which would be forced to redeploy into line formation wherupon the skirmishers would melt away. This was classic tactics to slow enemy formations.

ADVICE

If learning Warhammer, start with smaller battles like 500 to 1,500 points. If you have an experienced teacher set up balanced armies (more core troops and fewer high powered special troops) to learn the mechanics.

READ the rulebook. 7th edition rules cover many cases that arise on the table and knowing those rules allows you to make effective maneuver choices.

Finally, this game is about maneuver whereas 40k is about run and gun. Each player must be mindful of where to position his units to charge the enemy while guarding his flanks and rear. Choosing an all infantry army is dangerous as it yields the maneuver initiative to the enemy. However, salting in some chariots and cavalry to seek out flanks makes for a powerful combination.

Warhammer is a richly tactical game which offers so many army options that no two games are exactly alike. Happy gaming.
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Anselmo Diaz
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"Warhammer is a richly tactical game ..."

Yeah, don't play it unless you are rich, as it's the worst money sink I've seen. Too expensive and too time consuming for my taste.cool
 
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Dean Thomas
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Echtalion wrote:
"Warhammer is a richly tactical game ..."

Yeah, don't play it unless you are rich, as it's the worst money sink I've seen. Too expensive and too time consuming for my taste.cool


Yeah, you have a bit of a point there. It is expensive, but I have seen worse having played 3 different collectable card games.

Yeah, it takes a long time to ready an army for battle.

Neontek wrote:
The first thing I noticed (and this bothered me) were the blocks of miniatures (units) that had a very slow movement. Most of my units didn't seem to move at all. And these blocks of miniatures weren't very individual. (It's as if placing five or six models + counters to count rank/number would do the trick too.)


Yes a 1 piece goblin is going to be fairly similar to it's brothers. But other than the simple minatures provided in The Battle For Skull Pass many minatures are multi-part plastic kits that allow a great deal of freedom in their construction.

Other things such as marching and animosity have been covered by others.

WHFB is certainly not for everyone, and I do not think it is the sort of game that you can review after your first game.
 
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Kurskorahn
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Scenario:
Your first major problem. Way too big for a starting scenario. Imagine playing a game of descent with a first timer and asking them to control 4 characters in a player made quest designed for a 15 hour marathon of special rules galore.

That terrain was obviously set up for their benefit. I would have played with more terrain and set it up in an agrreable fashion.

Session:
1. How big was your playing field? How far apart did you start? I'm usually in combat on second turn starting 24" apart. Did you forget to march?

2. Less rules lawyering and again, a smaller scenario is what you need.

3. Beginner's mistake. Again, not the best way to learn a new game.

4. Use more terrain. Use the reccommended terrain placement in the rule book. Terrain is as tactical as you make it. Of course units that can't shoot have no use for taking and holding a building (unless you make that part of the scenario.

5. The building rules are new and focused on improving infantry. Personally, i like them a lot. However, unless you want to play the siege variant, the games focus ios not on the buildings.

6. Goblins are easily scared creatures. Having seen the unit go in the forest but not yet come out they're a bit cautious. Seriously though, this situation is not terribly common and is easily avoided by experienced players.

7. How did he suddenly die? How many turns did you play? A normal game is 6 turns.

8. If this game is about characters and monsters, then how do you explain your giant losing to some measly skane slaves? The answer is that characters and monsters play an important supporting role but can not win alone and can easily be countered by Rank and File troops. The example of the giant is completely realistic as it was simply overwhelmed by the countless numbers of basic troops.

9. They were maxing out on magic and I personally would have let them know it was a bit lame. If they were as arrogant as you say, then that would ruin any game for me.



So what did I like about this game?

10. One mechanic I loved very much (and this seemed to be the only weapon in my army that actually hurt something), was my self-made (and popular) spoon-catapult. I liked this 'guess' weapon because you have to guess at what distance the enemy target is.

11. They were maxed out on magic. It's only as powerful as you make it. Artillery can be just as deadly and even more-so if you want it to be. The last game I played had a cannon take out a Slaan(the magic user) on turn 2. I win and have fun with armies that have max, middle, or even no magic. I also win and have fun with armies that have lot's of shooting down to none at all (my favorite army - Vampire Counts).

Review:
A. Again, you need to play normal scenarios with experienced players. There is no "magic weapon" in the entire game that I truly fear, nor character, nor monster. I play humans - the weakest, most rank and file troop dependant army and have a %70 win ratio.

B. Again, smaller scenario and smaller playing field.

C. You set yourself up for failure by playing an all goblin list. Those are difficult to field and require finesse.

D. Goblins as you played them are a hoarde army. You're not supposed to care about the individual.


In the end, it comes down to opinion. You based yours on a flawed seesion where you were doomed from the beginning. We both like Descent and Warhammer Quest, but neither of us would enjoy a fundamentally flawed session of either game.
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I didn't drive all the way down here to play a peace game
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Wow, that was a really sad story. Take a new guy, stick him in one of those God-awful marathon mega-games, then let him make bad moves all over the place because he doesn't know the rules instead of helping him out. The problem wasn't the game, but the people you were playing with. Personally I'd prefer going to the dentist to a 4000-pointer. And NEVER with a new player. If all that happened to me, I'd hate Warhammer, too.

I enjoy playing with new players. I'll play a small game of 500-1000pts with them, and do my thinking out loud so they can learn what the considerations are. If they have trouble with movement, I'll ask, "Where would you like the unit to end up, and I'll show you how to get it there." If they start to make a questionable move like obstructing one unit with another, moving a war machine when they probably don't realize that means they can't shoot with it, declaring a charge that if my unit flees will leave them in a horrendous position, etc., I point out the problem ahead of time and give them other options to choose from. You can't be expected to enjoy a game in which you don't understand the consequences of what you're doing. When you declared a kamikaze charge with the giant into the large block of troops, I would have explained how to calculate the enemy's static combat resolution and that unless the giant gets a lucky roll he will probably lose, so you might want to set up a coordinated attack instead. Mentally estimating combat resolution before you charge is a huge part of the game. Veteran players should not beat up a newbie by letting him do things he obviously wouldn't be doing if he knew the rules.

As far as the skinks in the building, I don't like those new building rules much, either, and usually just treat buildings as impassable. In any event, the veteran players could have just told you what was going to happen instead of letting you stand there and get shot. Maybe a giant really should be able to knock down a wall, but sometimes game rules don't cover everything or even make sense. (Ever play Hansa? When you sell goods, you LOSE a market stand, LOSE influence in the area, and get NO money! What the hell kind of sale is that? laugh )

Hope you have a chance to try the game again with smaller armies and 'bigger' opponents. I'm sure you would enjoy it if people would take the time to explain what was going on.

Frank in L.A.
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Gene Drumheller
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you should of just played a really simple game.
obviously you were not sure on how to play the game well, yet you decided to play a game that was probably for more experienced players.

after you get to know it the easy way, then you can start saying you like it or not.
 
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I liked your review but think that maybe you should stick to 2nd ed 40k and maybe Mordhiem if you want to play a game in the warhammer fantasy setting. Mordheim is the fantasy version of necromunda.
 
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Jordan LeGros
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Hmmm,

I really enjoy the Warhammer now. I got tired of the overpowered magic items and "cheese" of the earlier editions. After a break of about 8 years I got back in to the game. I too started with two BFSP sets and I really am having a blast. Most of the time my buddy and I play 1000-1500 point battles. Being new to the game and playing in an 8000 point battle does not seem like the best way to go. From my point of view adding rules granularity makes room for MORE arguments, not less and, as a former Warhammer tournament judge, I favor simplicity and cleaner rules.

I know there can be horrible amounts of chance involved with the dice in combat shooting and magic, but if you know the basic rules well, things do tend to even out.

The siege rules are great when you are playing a dedicated siege game. Warmaster would have been my rule set of choice for the numbers of forces you had (all "horde" armies), but that is just me. I like smaller games. You mention liking WH40k and well, what you seem to have wanted from Warhammer is more of that "Skirmish" gaming model. Warhammer just does not do that and suffers "epic fail" when expected to function as a skirmish game at 8000 points.

Warhammer is not a historical simulation, so I don't know what kind of "reality modeling" you found missing. Goblins and Orcs are not Celts. Many "historical" systems which I play use set numbers of figure affixed to rectangular bases, because they are representing large, more or less orderly, units in formation and are not SKIRMISH games.

Have you tried Confrontation: age of Ragnarok? That sounds like more what you were looking for out of Warhammer.
 
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Tobias, I agree the game isn't fluid and flexible enough. So many rules, yet so little possibilities. It's very expensive and time consuming for little tactical or strategic reward. It's more a hobby than a game, let alone a battle simumlation.

Have you tried Rackham's Rag'narok?

 
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Club Squirrel
England
Brierley Hill
The Black Country
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I bought the 7th ed. when it first came out as I had just become a huge fan of Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play as well as the Felix & Gotrek novels.

Alas it was all too much. My painting sucked, my boredom setting up the game grew and in the end I just put it back in the box and it's been sitting on my shelf unplayed ever since. You really need to be a GW fan and have fun painting miniatures. I'm not and I don't. :(
 
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Robert Taylor-Smith
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Okotoks
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After playing Hordes of the Things I have never played WFB again. There are so many other and better systems out there. They may just lack the marketing clout of GW. Plus the painting and cost is far less and thus may not be attractive to the lifestyle fans.
 
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