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Subject: Loki's ships + invade from Valhalla breaks the game. rss

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Svarog Tryglav
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Hey,

First of all - Blood Rage is an amazing game. If you are playing it casually then there's not much to change - it's almost perfect.

But if you got addicted like we did and you play it every week at least once, after some time you'll hit the wall.

I've played this game 60+ times, 4/5 players. I have most of the kickstarter exclusives and so on.
The problem we have at this point is that some of the 3rd age combos are just too powerfull. They are so strong effectively that it doesnt matter that much what you've done in 2nd or 1st age - your draft first pick in age 3 makes you win or lose.
One of the examples is the valhalla invade (friggas domain) /fire dragons combo.

The question whether you should pay the normal invade cost apart from 1 rage for being able to invade from valhalla has been asked here before, and according to one of the game creators, you don't. So, you pay 1 rage and you can take any of your unit from Valhalla and place it on the board.
This combined with lokis ships (+8 or +12 per lost ship) makes nearly unstopable combo. It's very hard to beat 12 points per 1 rage. The win ratio on that combo is insane simply because the only way to defend from it is to quickly pillage everything. But, if the player with ships locked a province, it almost impossible.
If you have the upgrade that lets you sacrifice your units, you can easily get to 250/300 points.

So my question here is, does it really work that way? Any card that lets you invade such as additional warrior or reinvade after lost battle cleary states "invade FOR FREE" now, Friggas Domain does not say "for free". It just lets you pay 1 to execute invade action from valhalla, and that action, according to the general rules, should cost the figure strenght.
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Matheus Affonso
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Even if the player with Frigga's Domain + Eternal Dragons has one province locked down, you will still need a way to sacrifice your ships. If everything is pillaged, then what's the point of invading a locked down province where nobody can answer the call to battle?

There's nothing wrong with Frigga's Domain. Its power level is consistent with that of many other upgrades. Getting Loki's Domain, Eminence and Wrath, for example, can get you a lot of points throughout the game. Combo that with Odin's Throne (substituting LD), Loki's Trickery, Loki's Poison and Glorious Death! quests, and you're set.

As for discrepancies in glory through the ages, you should see ages 1 and 2 as oportunities to get good positioning, prepare your age 3 combos and harvest the clan stats you are more likely to need. Also, the sum of the glory acquired during ages 1 and 2 is not negligible. In my group, more often than not, there will be at least 2 players with around 50 glory by the end of age 2, and 50 glory can very well be the difference between winning and losing.
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Kevin Rush
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If you have played that many times, why is your group allowing someone to lock down a province? I have a comparable amount of games as you, and everyone in our group will not allow any one person to secure a province easily. And usually if they do, it is at a high cost. Then they have to hope they get Frigga's Domain in thier first hand or someone will hate draft it immediately.

At the moment, I have 32+22 (4 and 5 experienced players) game statistics recorded. Frigga's domain sits at an average weighted win/loss ratio (8/29 and 6/19). Eternal dragons sits slightly higher than average, even though it is a top 5 card (9/29 and 7/21). This tells me neither of these cards is over powered.
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Tyrell Wood
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I agree it is a good strategy, but I don't think the game is broken because of it. How often does someone actually get a chance to play that strategy? In my group it is minimal. You have to draft the cards and appropriately and if you do not play it right you still do not win. I agree that the third Ragnarok phase is a lot more dramatic and sometimes it feels like the game builds up slowly to that round but my feelings so far is there is a ton of replay-ability. If you are playing it once a week I can see needing to take a break from it for a couple weeks.
 
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Joel Schuster
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I'm having the same issue. I also think that ship loop is a little too strong. I have not seen it effectively beaten by another engine. Great game but this got a little boring too quickly.

I agree that paying the real cost for reinvading should about fix it. But then maybe that specific card is a little too weak. You mainly use it for the ship loop, rarely to bring back a leader or important monster.

Maybe the cost could start at 1 and increase for each resurrection of every figure. But that would be tedious to keep track of.

If there is any combo that is really overpowered, its the ship loop. And i identified the same source of the problem, that cheap resurrection card. Everything else seems fine.
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In my view, when you get this combo, you are entitled to two resurrections (so 24 points + 12 for Ragnarok). Three resurrections if you play well, and four or more is something went wrong on part of other players.

First you've got to play the upgrades: that's two turns where your ship isn't on the board. One or two provinces will be pillaged safely (safe from your 12-point ship, that is). Then there's a round in which a province on the other side of the map can be pillaged safely. Then your ship dies, and there's a round while it sits in Valhalla. In other words, the players just need to be aware of your options and pillage carefully.

If a player leaves an unpillaged province with 3+ strength and no rage, that's just an invitation for you to score 100+ points.
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Joel Schuster
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Of course, the combo only gets truly deadly if combined with Sea Serpent. Dont forget that when you play a ship upgrade, you may invade with a ship unit right away.

The problem is not that it cannot be countered. But it needs a coordinated effort of players that is not needed against any other kind of combo. Thats also a reason why it is so strong. If player A has a ship loop going and a locked down province, it needs some player B to go in and break that lock. Whoever does that bears the risk of handing the game to player C or D. So, noone does actually like to do that.
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If player A has a ship loop going, it means that B, C, or D is cooperating. You cannot make your ships die in an empty province, can you? So when player A tries to get his ship killed in my province, I must deny it, and it is both in my best interest and in the best interest of other two.

(The exception is with Frigga's Sacrifice, but then this combo is very slow.)

The best case for the B-C-D alliance would be to make A's ship standing useless on the map: by escaping the adjacent provinces, or by letting him win the pillage. With Sea Serpent the letting-win move is slightly easier.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Friggas Sacrifice might be slow but its a non issue if you have properly locked down a province.

Pillaging a province so that ships cannot be destroyed in battle is not always the best interest of another player. He gives up control of tempo by that. He might have wanted to add some figures, play upgrades and quests. If he gives up his tempo control province, he might run out of time to play his own game as planned. That is exactly what I described earlier, which results in profiting of a third player.

Also, if one province is not pillagable anymore, ships may be resurrected just to the next available fjord. This might sound like a counter/solution in theory, but in practice things are rather different.

One more important point on this: If I see that the ship loop player keeps spawning his ships in a fjord to fight me and I got appropriate cards, I'll actually try to abuse this. Leech rage, glory, cards (Loki) or gain additional points or track advances. You'll either drive him away from you like that in a more subtle way, so you still maintain control of tempo with your locked province. Or you gain the benefits of won battles (high axe track) and the additional rewards by the mentioned cards.

Pillaging away my controlled province just to move the ship loop player to the next best fjord is actually rather short sighted, imho. In any way, it is not really a suitable way to counter. The only REAL counter imho would be to have 2-3 engines that are capable of scoring just as many points. There is Odins Throne and there is Loki or Tyr and some such. But none is nearly as good as the ship loop if properly played.

I was sceptic for quite a while if the loop is really better than the other options provided. But now I have seen these alternatives pretty much maxed out as well and never matching the ship points. If 2 of 3 games are won by that strategy, something seems wrong and boring.
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Todd Parker
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One thing I like about this game is that it can have a totally different feel based on what combos are out there. If nobody has a loki combo, its more of a big power battle game. If somebody is loki-ing, its more gambling and guessing what others will do.
If someone has the ship loop, age 3 goes fast... or at least it should. This forces the other players to play completely differently to stop them. Dont pillage where it will kill their ship... end the age fast... There are ways to stop it, people just have to do it.
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Svarog Tryglav
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As Joel said - of course it can be stopped, but it requires one of the players to sacrifice his own chance of winning.
Whether is about preventing the province lock, pillaging your own or leaving it empty - it's something that usualy kills your original strategy for that age. So if your chance is to loose to the combo or prevent the combo and lose anyway just to a different player, why bother?
I agree with Joel that the best solution would be to equalize chances by adding more comparable combos. For now the only one is Throne with 3/4 quests - which is much harder to do since it requires not only good drafting but also strong initial and kept board presence.
Friggas domain + fire dragons does not happen that often but still in 90% cases its guaranteed win.
 
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Carl Frodge
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Svarogost wrote:
Hey,

First of all - Blood Rage is an amazing game. If you are playing it casually then there's not much to change - it's almost perfect.

But if you got addicted like we did and you play it every week at least once, after some time you'll hit the wall.

I've played this game 60+ times, 4/5 players. I have most of the kickstarter exclusives and so on.
The problem we have at this point is that some of the 3rd age combos are just too powerfull. They are so strong effectively that it doesnt matter that much what you've done in 2nd or 1st age - your draft first pick in age 3 makes you win or lose.

I disagree with this. I think if you play badly in Age 1 and 2, it's gonna hurt you significantly, and I've seen this to be true in many of the games I've played.

Quote:
One of the examples is the valhalla invade (friggas domain) /fire dragons combo.

The question whether you should pay the normal invade cost apart from 1 rage for being able to invade from valhalla has been asked here before, and according to one of the game creators, you don't. So, you pay 1 rage and you can take any of your unit from Valhalla and place it on the board.
This combined with lokis ships (+8 or +12 per lost ship) makes nearly unstopable combo. It's very hard to beat 12 points per 1 rage. The win ratio on that combo is insane simply because the only way to defend from it is to quickly pillage everything. But, if the player with ships locked a province, it almost impossible.
If you have the upgrade that lets you sacrifice your units, you can easily get to 250/300 points.

I think you're doing something wrong, there. Sacrifice does not equal destroy. You don't get the +8/+12 when you sacrifice units. It's still a great combo, but it's beatable. You also have to factor in whether you can destroy the ships or not. If your opponents are letting you pillage just to destroy your ship, they're doing something wrong.

Quote:
So my question here is, does it really work that way? Any card that lets you invade such as additional warrior or reinvade after lost battle cleary states "invade FOR FREE" now, Friggas Domain does not say "for free". It just lets you pay 1 to execute invade action from valhalla, and that action, according to the general rules, should cost the figure strenght.

I believe you pay 1 and pay the invade cost, but I think in the games I've played we played where it was free. I think this might be covered in the FAQ, but I'm not sure.
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If this two-piece combo is so strong that it breaks the game, why don't you take Frigga's Domain or Eternal Dragons first pick?

So Jimmy takes Frigga's Domain and Timmy takes Eternal Dragons. Voila, nobody ends up with the combo!

Why do you let other players lock down the province? Why do you pass the FD or ED to the player who has locked down the province after all?

And most of all, what strategy do you play that isn't going to be helped by a) pillaging the province, and b) not pillaging it? And what strategy does the third guy follow, that your a) or b) is going to help him more than you?

Edit: fixed card name.
 
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Matheus Affonso
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agentkuo wrote:
Svarogost wrote:
Hey,

First of all - Blood Rage is an amazing game. If you are playing it casually then there's not much to change - it's almost perfect.

But if you got addicted like we did and you play it every week at least once, after some time you'll hit the wall.

I've played this game 60+ times, 4/5 players. I have most of the kickstarter exclusives and so on.
The problem we have at this point is that some of the 3rd age combos are just too powerfull. They are so strong effectively that it doesnt matter that much what you've done in 2nd or 1st age - your draft first pick in age 3 makes you win or lose.

I disagree with this. I think if you play badly in Age 1 and 2, it's gonna hurt you significantly, and I've seen this to be true in many of the games I've played.

Quote:
One of the examples is the valhalla invade (friggas domain) /fire dragons combo.

The question whether you should pay the normal invade cost apart from 1 rage for being able to invade from valhalla has been asked here before, and according to one of the game creators, you don't. So, you pay 1 rage and you can take any of your unit from Valhalla and place it on the board.
This combined with lokis ships (+8 or +12 per lost ship) makes nearly unstopable combo. It's very hard to beat 12 points per 1 rage. The win ratio on that combo is insane simply because the only way to defend from it is to quickly pillage everything. But, if the player with ships locked a province, it almost impossible.
If you have the upgrade that lets you sacrifice your units, you can easily get to 250/300 points.

I think you're doing something wrong, there. Sacrifice does not equal destroy. You don't get the +8/+12 when you sacrifice units. It's still a great combo, but it's beatable. You also have to factor in whether you can destroy the ships or not. If your opponents are letting you pillage just to destroy your ship, they're doing something wrong.

Quote:
So my question here is, does it really work that way? Any card that lets you invade such as additional warrior or reinvade after lost battle cleary states "invade FOR FREE" now, Friggas Domain does not say "for free". It just lets you pay 1 to execute invade action from valhalla, and that action, according to the general rules, should cost the figure strenght.

I believe you pay 1 and pay the invade cost, but I think in the games I've played we played where it was free. I think this might be covered in the FAQ, but I'm not sure.


1. When you sacrifice, the unit is destroyed. You do get the glory.
2. You only pay 1 rage. Unit's strength does not matter or in any manner influence the price for using Frigga's Domain ability.
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Carl Frodge
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mdaffonso wrote:
agentkuo wrote:
Svarogost wrote:
Hey,

First of all - Blood Rage is an amazing game. If you are playing it casually then there's not much to change - it's almost perfect.

But if you got addicted like we did and you play it every week at least once, after some time you'll hit the wall.

I've played this game 60+ times, 4/5 players. I have most of the kickstarter exclusives and so on.
The problem we have at this point is that some of the 3rd age combos are just too powerfull. They are so strong effectively that it doesnt matter that much what you've done in 2nd or 1st age - your draft first pick in age 3 makes you win or lose.

I disagree with this. I think if you play badly in Age 1 and 2, it's gonna hurt you significantly, and I've seen this to be true in many of the games I've played.

Quote:
One of the examples is the valhalla invade (friggas domain) /fire dragons combo.

The question whether you should pay the normal invade cost apart from 1 rage for being able to invade from valhalla has been asked here before, and according to one of the game creators, you don't. So, you pay 1 rage and you can take any of your unit from Valhalla and place it on the board.
This combined with lokis ships (+8 or +12 per lost ship) makes nearly unstopable combo. It's very hard to beat 12 points per 1 rage. The win ratio on that combo is insane simply because the only way to defend from it is to quickly pillage everything. But, if the player with ships locked a province, it almost impossible.
If you have the upgrade that lets you sacrifice your units, you can easily get to 250/300 points.

I think you're doing something wrong, there. Sacrifice does not equal destroy. You don't get the +8/+12 when you sacrifice units. It's still a great combo, but it's beatable. You also have to factor in whether you can destroy the ships or not. If your opponents are letting you pillage just to destroy your ship, they're doing something wrong.

Quote:
So my question here is, does it really work that way? Any card that lets you invade such as additional warrior or reinvade after lost battle cleary states "invade FOR FREE" now, Friggas Domain does not say "for free". It just lets you pay 1 to execute invade action from valhalla, and that action, according to the general rules, should cost the figure strenght.

I believe you pay 1 and pay the invade cost, but I think in the games I've played we played where it was free. I think this might be covered in the FAQ, but I'm not sure.


1. When you sacrifice, the unit is destroyed. You do get the glory.
2. You only pay 1 rage. Unit's strength does not matter or in any manner influence the price for using Frigga's Domain ability.

Hmm, well okay then. Maybe the OP is on to something.
 
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Nik Degtyarenko
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Thats what I heard from so many players.
You score more or less = and than someone gets Loki's ships + invade from Valhalla combo to work and he easily gets x2-x3 of present score. To counter him you need to waste powers of several players and open road to victory o whomever stays out of it.
Sorry but its too annoying to take game seriously after this, Im encountering something like this for the first time after 10 years of boardgaming. Games often have ballance problems but not on this scale.
 
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Kevin Rush
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Wyrtt wrote:
Games often have ballance problems but not on this scale.


This game is one of the most balanced games I have played. Which is why I love it so much.

If you are viewing balance problems then you are being outplayed or someone in the group is terrible and being taken advantage of. There is not any innate strategy that even comes close to securing even a 33% victory rate. This is because there are many hard counters and easy actions to mitigate every strategy in this game. If you think something is too strong you either have not found or do not try others ways to beat it.

I'm a few 4 player games short of posting statistics for many plays (with experienced players) showing how well the game is balanced. There is no strategy that wins an obscene amount of times, though there are a few low tier cards that rarely see play. I guess you could call that unbalanced and I couldn't argue with you. But the example here is not unbalanced in any way.
 
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Mark Blasco

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Wyrtt wrote:
Thats what I heard from so many players.
You score more or less = and than someone gets Loki's ships + invade from Valhalla combo to work and he easily gets x2-x3 of present score. To counter him you need to waste powers of several players and open road to victory o whomever stays out of it.
Sorry but its too annoying to take game seriously after this, Im encountering something like this for the first time after 10 years of boardgaming. Games often have ballance problems but not on this scale.


It seems to me that a lot of people don't understand that with any drafting game, preventing your opponent from getting something is just as important a strategy as trying to get what you want. If you know that the next player is going for a specific combo, and by holding onto one card you can prevent them from getting an additional 50 points, than taking that card is the best move. If your whole strategy with the draft is just trying to get what is best for you, than you're not doing it right. Preventing someone else from winning is just as important a strategy.

What I love about this game is that there are so many different combinations that are "broken", and so many opportunities to stop other players from getting those things. The first few games, when you don't know what you're doing, it will seem like someone gets an awesome combo which wins the game for them. Once everyone knows the cards and strategy, though, the focus changes to actively preventing other people from getting those combos.

Another thing you have to think about is that each combo is more or less powerful depending on how many people are playing. The ship/sacrifice combo is much worse with only 3 players than 5, because each player gets more turns in a 3 player game. In a higher player game, pillaging to get the bonuses and completing quests will do a lot more to help secure victory than with lower player games.
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Svarog Tryglav
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No one will pass Frigga's Domain in our games. It's a 100% first pick, even if its not needed in your current strategy - the problem starts when its drafted in 1st pack by the player who has +8 ships from age 2. Or if the player who drafted it gets +12 ships on second pick. All along it happens way to often and when it does I'm standing by the opinion that it breaks the game. Sure, you can move your units away from the province where the ship was placed - if you're the only player in that province. If not then you and the others have to move as well, canceling their original plans. What if you bet on Ragnarok death bonus and the Frigga's Domain owner puts his ship right there? You'll leave the province so he wont win, effectively losing your chance to win as well? This is not the kind of choice you should make in a board game imho.
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Mark Blasco

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Svarogost wrote:
This is not the kind of choice you should make in a board game imho.


Well, I don't know that I fully agree with you, but I understand your point. It seems like the easiest solution is for your group to just remove that card, and then problem solved.

I haven't played a lot of games of blood rage, but that combination has only been used twice with my game group, and only won 1 of those 2 times (even then, it came down to only 2 points difference for 2nd place).
 
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Jason
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Don't let a player lock a province. Locking a province allows that player to stretch out any age, easily pillage, and likely positions them for Ragnarok points.

Don't pass +12 ships unless you picked up Frigga's Domain. Outside of new players that won't know the combos, these two cards should never end up drafted by the same player.

Force the player with +VP ships and Frigga's Domain to burn turns pillaging in order to get their ships sunk. Age 3 should be short (around 10 rounds and maybe shorter) if the players see this combo. That means getting quests and/or point churning combos out early is critical.

Worst case scenario should be a player with Sea Serpent, 8+ ships, and Frigga's Charm. Odds are this should happen 1 out of 8 games in a 4 player game. Why? Because the player with Sea Serpent should never be passed 8+ ships nor Frigga's Charm. That means the cards have to be in their hand at the start of drafting.

The 8VP ships and Frigga's Charm engine is actually slow since it's 2 turns for 8 points (or 3 turns for 16 with the Sea Serpent). With the Sea Serpent, it's probably a 32 points for 6 turns. It's not bad, but it's not great. And, players pushing the engine farther should end up punished hard by missing out on playing quests, not getting any successful pillages, and winning few (or no) battles.

Or, as someone else suggested, you could just house rule that Frigga's Charm isn't used. Or maybe house rule that it costs 2 to invade from Valhalla.
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Mike Sieder

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I am new to the game, so I want to clarify. Having this combo:

Frigga's Domain 0 You may pay 1 rage to invade with any one of your figures in Valhalla.

Frigga's Sacrifice 1 As your action, you may destroy 2 of your figures to raise one of your clan stats by 1.

Eternal Dragons 2 Gain 12 glory when a ship of yours is destroyed.

Is not a game breaker?
Turn 1 the player plays the ship upgrade, and invades his sea serpent.
Turn 2 the player invades with a normal ship
Turn 3 the player plays Frigga Domain
Turn 4 the player plays Frigga's Sacrifice
Turn 5 the player uses Frigga's Sacrifice
Turn 6 the player pays 2 rage to bring his ships back in
Turn 7 the player uses Frigga's Sacrifice

rinse and repeat until out of rage? so yes, this combo looks very slow. But they can skip turn 1 if they have an age 2 ship upgrade, They can skip turn 2 if they only want to do one boat at a time.

but turn 5 and 7 gave the players 48 glory points and 2 stat upgrades. And this is the output every other turn until the game ends or u run out of rage. Also, you would do this at the province being destoyed for another 24 points at the end. I don't care for the responses that say you have to hate draft to stop this. If the conclusion is that this strategy is not OverPowered, than there has to be competing strategies that score just as many points as this in the same time frame. Are there?

Again, i don't know either way, I am a new player. just working this out in my head.




 
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Mike Sieder

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so math-wise, that

5 rages for 24 points and 1 stat upgrade.
7 rages for 48 points and 2 stat upgrade.
9 rages for 72 points and 3 stat upgrade.
11 rages for 96 points and 4 stat upgrade.
12 rages for 108 points and 5 stat upgrade.

Yes very slow to pull off. But i guarantee you against novice Blood rage players, this would be very effective and look broken...

So please give alternate strategies that produce at a competing level to this.


 
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Kevin Rush
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You can only bring back one ship at a time, So your turn 6 would actually take 2 turns. Yes this is a very strong combo, but as you pointed out this takes a LONG time. Maximally it will take the person 7 turns to get (at most) 68 glory, assuming no other relevant upgrades or strategies will apply to this such as Loki's Eminence or Odin's Insirpation.

Let's Assume you already have the Sea Serpent in a fjord from Age 2 AND it is in a province that cannot be pillaged (because somebody forcing a pillage and killing the Sea Serpent or Ship before you can Sacrifice will weaken this combo).
Turn 1 - Play Eternal Dragons
Turn 2 - Play Frigga's Sacrifice
Turn 3 - Play Frigga's Domain
Turn 4 - Activate Frigga's Sacrifice (24 glory + 1 stat = 34 max glory)
Turn 5 - Activate Frigga's Domain
Turn 6 - Activate Frigga's Domain
Turn 7 - Activate Frigga's Sacrifice (24 glory + 1 stat = 34 max glory)


This combo is only in a 3+ game. Now let's assume you are the first player in Age 3.
So in a 3 player game there will be 5 starting provinces. Your 2 opponents have effectively 18 actions to end the age by pillaging before you can complete the cycle 3 times. If they let you do they cycle 3 times, or you set-up the board to do it, then it is a deserved win.
In a 4P game, there are 6 provinces, and your opponents have 27 turns to end the age.
In a 5P game there are 7 provinces, and your opponents have 36 turns to end the age.

All in all, if you set-up for this to be succesful by not allowing your opponents to successfully pillage 1 out of 3 (or 4 or 5) actions, then it is a deserved win and you needed to outplay them ine the Previous Ages to accomplish this feat. If they just didn't feel like pillaging and let the Age drag on, then they let you win.
 
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Brett Smith
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Krushhhhh wrote:
You can only bring back one ship at a time, So your turn 6 would actually take 2 turns. Yes this is a very strong combo, but as you pointed out this takes a LONG time. Maximally it will take the person 7 turns to get (at most) 68 glory, assuming no other relevant upgrades or strategies will apply to this such as Loki's Eminence or Odin's Insirpation.

Let's Assume you already have the Sea Serpent in a fjord from Age 2 AND it is in a province that cannot be pillaged (because somebody forcing a pillage and killing the Sea Serpent or Ship before you can Sacrifice will weaken this combo).
Turn 1 - Play Eternal Dragons
Turn 2 - Play Frigga's Sacrifice
Turn 3 - Play Frigga's Domain
Turn 4 - Activate Frigga's Sacrifice (24 glory + 1 stat = 34 max glory)
Turn 5 - Activate Frigga's Domain
Turn 6 - Activate Frigga's Domain
Turn 7 - Activate Frigga's Sacrifice (24 glory + 1 stat = 34 max glory)


This combo is only in a 3+ game. Now let's assume you are the first player in Age 3.
So in a 3 player game there will be 5 starting provinces. Your 2 opponents have effectively 18 actions to end the age by pillaging before you can complete the cycle 3 times. If they let you do they cycle 3 times, or you set-up the board to do it, then it is a deserved win.
In a 4P game, there are 6 provinces, and your opponents have 27 turns to end the age.
In a 5P game there are 7 provinces, and your opponents have 36 turns to end the age.

All in all, if you set-up for this to be succesful by not allowing your opponents to successfully pillage 1 out of 3 (or 4 or 5) actions, then it is a deserved win and you needed to outplay them ine the Previous Ages to accomplish this feat. If they just didn't feel like pillaging and let the Age drag on, then they let you win.


I find it hard that out of the 6 cards you draft you can get this exact same 3 cards each time you play if any of your other players have seen this it just would never happen in my play group again. Your assessment is spot on if your other players are all trying the turtle strategy and just letting you do this over and over then you deserve to win and they deserve to loose, in this same time I could of just of easily done the

"Odin's Throne - Double the glory award for quests you complete."

and completed 3 or 4 quests which means im scoring around 60-80 plus if I win some of those battles for the quests I get even more clan upgrade bonuses which means I score even more points if I get to the 20+ spot on all my clan stat sheet locations.
 
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