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Subject: Counter mix limits on play rss

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Devin Smith
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This question is for John Bohrer, and asked in public for further use by all.

Clearclaw and I were having a chat in the forum for his Sun/London expansion here on the geek, where we noticed that the rulebook is silent on two things regarding counter mix:

1. Track ownership markers and
2. Grey town tokens

Do either or both of these constitute a limit on play?
 
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Alex Sorbello
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not an offical reply but you do not need more tokens then supplied to you. I've played many games of this in most expansions and never even got close to running out of tokens. (mostly 3P games in which you need the most tokens....
you only need the grey tokens for straight and curve town tiles! all other have their town marked already...
Cheers
lexen
 
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Richard Irving
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Excalabur wrote:
This question is for John Bohrer, and asked in public for further use by all.

Clearclaw and I were having a chat in the forum for his Sun/London expansion here on the geek, where we noticed that the rulebook is silent on two things regarding counter mix:

1. Track ownership markers and
2. Grey town tokens

Do either or both of these constitute a limit on play?


The Ireland map does specify that town markers are a fixed limit. But ther is a reason why it comes up only on that map--it is only officially published map with both towns but no Urbanization.

Most cases it will not be hit due to using 1 or 3 outlet town tiles and Urbanizations. There 14 towns on the original map. If Urbanization is taken each time, there will be only 6 towns left.

As for track ownership markers, I have never run out--except on JC's maps! (especially Wales--extra tokens used for informational markers and a copious amount of towns.)
 
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J C Lawrence
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rri1 wrote:
As for track ownership markers, I have never run out--except on JC's maps!


Yup! I'm not sure its a prime characteristic of my maps, but it doesn't seem far off. Three player AoS:Sun and AoS:Wales, and 3 or 4 player AoS:South-East Australia all tend to run out of track markers

Quote:
(especially Wales--extra tokens used for informational markers and a copious amount of towns.)


Guilty as charged: 21 towns and 6 track markers required for the charts and tracks.

Oh, and I've also started running out of standard track on the base Great Lakes map lately. Three of the last four playings of Great Lakes had seen us run out of either broad curve track. Very strange!
 
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John Bohrer
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Excalabur wrote:
This question is for John Bohrer, and asked in public for further use by all.

Clearclaw and I were having a chat in the forum for his Sun/London expansion here on the geek, where we noticed that the rulebook is silent on two things regarding counter mix:

1. Track ownership markers and
2. Grey town tokens

Do either or both of these constitute a limit on play?


Games are usually either counter-limited or not. For example, 1830 and Acquire are counter limited games. If a number 24 tile is not available, you can't just make another. If you want another share of Festival stock and all 25 are gone, you can't just print another.
On the other hand, some games are not counter limited. For instance, if you need another Robot in Outpost, the rules say you can make more. Need more Tanks in Axis & Allies? Use the little white chips.
Folks that have been playing the new Eastern US & Canada Age of Steam expansion have noticed that they can run out of, for example, Simple Straight Track Tiles in a 6 player game. Yes, they are counter-limited, you only get what is listed in the rules as your parts, 48 Simple Straight Track Tiles, you are not supposed to print more straight tiles.
Folks that have been playing the new Eastern US & Canada Age of Steam expansion have noticed that they can run out of track ownership markers in a 3 player game. Yes, again they are counter-limited, you only have 25 of each color.
The Grey Town markers have presented an interesting problem, because extras have been provided in most copies. You should always have at least the 8 mentioned in the rules, but some copies have been shipped with 10 or 12. One customer told me he got 15 in his copy. What to do with them? I don't know, store the extras in a baggie, I guess. You should only use 8 in a game.
As the rules show in the example on page 3 (All editions) the Town Markers are either placed on a Simple Track Tile (giving 2 entrances into the town) or on a Complex Track Tile (giving 4 entrances into a town). For some reason, I have seen people unnecessarily place Town Markers on Dedicated Town Track Tiles. Dedicated Town Track Tiles have either one entrance to the Town or three entrances to the Town and the Town is actually printed on the tile. They do not need Town Markers placed upon them, the Town is actually printed on the Tile.
Also, please note that the Austria expansion comes with a special Dedicated Town Tile with 5 entrances. This tile does not need a Town Marker placed on it, that is why we printed the Town on the tile!

meeple

John
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John Bohrer
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SouthernMan wrote:
Email him at his Winsome email address (in the AoS rules) - he's mentioned before he checks his email account a lot more than BGG.


For Age of Steam questions, Tom, I actually prefer the 'geek these days, so everyone has a chance to see what is going on. I try to check the 'geek one a day now, instead of once every week.

Cheers!

John
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Devin Smith
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Thanks John.

Of course, this generally doesn't come up (though I've seen the towns run out on the base map), but JC Lawrence's maps drive track development that leads to lots of towns and short bits of track, which is why this came up.

Your ruling if someone managed to run out of track ownership tokens would be 'too bad, no more track for you'?

Cheers,
Excalabur
 
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John Bohrer wrote:



Folks that have been playing the new Eastern US & Canada Age of Steam expansion have noticed that they can run out of track ownership markers in a 3 player game. Yes, again they are counter-limited, you only have 25 of each color.




I have used all of them in a 4 player Eastern US / Canada game. The Bos-Wash corridor interurban track builds can really use them up quickly. I will be more careful next time.

 
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J C Lawrence
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John Bohrer wrote:
Folks that have been playing the new Eastern US & Canada Age of Steam expansion have noticed that they can run out of track ownership markers in a 3 player game. Yes, again they are counter-limited, you only have 25 of each color.


If a player runs out of track ownership markers on a Winsome or Warfrog map, may they continue to build new track? May they re-assign an ownership marker from another of their track segments to the new one? Must they in fact re-assign such a marker or may the new track segment be left without a track ownership marker?
 
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BusinessIsGood
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Given that they are counter limited, when you are out, no more track building is possible. But you game designers can make your own rules, right?
 
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J C Lawrence
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vvrood wrote:
Given that they are counter limited, when you are out, no more track building is possible. But you game designers can make your own rules, right?


I don't think that's clear. There are two resources in question in this case: ownership tokens and track tiles. One may run out before the other. Obviously I can't build track without track tiles, but it isn't clear that I can't build track without ownership markers.
 
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BusinessIsGood
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"But I can't have overdrawn my checking account, I still have checks left!"
 
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J C Lawrence
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vvrood wrote:
"But I can't have overdrawn my checking account, I still have checks left!"


I can't buy things with cash because I'm out of cheques?
 
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John Bohrer
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Excalabur wrote:
Thanks John.

Of course, this generally doesn't come up (though I've seen the towns run out on the base map), but JC Lawrence's maps drive track development that leads to lots of towns and short bits of track, which is why this came up.

Your ruling if someone managed to run out of track ownership tokens would be 'too bad, no more track for you'?

Cheers,
Excalabur


Right, Devon, just like those Pennsylvania Railroad tokens in 1830, when they are gone, they are gone.

Most gamer's games are counter-limited. I would like a third Hospice in Puerto Rico, let me tell you! And an extra Wharf...

John
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Devin Smith
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Just making sure.

This leads to interesting nonsense if applied to some of the expansions, most notably Clearclaw's Sun map. I think JC will change the rules to get this out of that expansion, but the point remains that expansion designers need to take care on the point.

I never have the bucks to lay all of the Penn's tokens anyway, so that's mostly irrelevant, as is this discussion except in exceptional circumstances.

Also, note the spelling of my name. I realise both my given name and my username are spelled oddly, but it's my name nonetheless (and 'Devin' strictly dominates 'Devon' in numerical terms of people's names, but people associate the word with that pesky place in England).
 
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Anthony Simons
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Excalabur wrote:
... but people associate the word with that pesky place in England).


Now now; simmer down Devlin!
 
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John Bohrer
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Ooops, sorry about the name, Devin. soblue

Jon
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Daniel Corban
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John Bohrer wrote:
For some reason, I have seen people unnecessarily place Town Markers on Dedicated Town Track Tiles. Dedicated Town Track Tiles have either one entrance to the Town or three entrances to the Town and the Town is actually printed on the tile. They do not need Town Markers placed upon them, the Town is actually printed on the Tile.

1) The town tiles have a circle which is the perfect size to place a marker upon. After playing games like Puerto Rico, having a white circle and a round grey wooden piece that fits perfectly is virtually explicit instruction to place the marker into the circle.
2) The town tile circles are white, while the town markers are grey. If the town circles were grey or the town markers were white, it would be less ambiguous.
3) Scanning the board for one type of item (grey markers) is easier than scanning for two types of items (grey markers and white circles).
4) I don't believe the rulebook specifically mentions whether to place markers on the town tiles or not.
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John Bohrer
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dcorban wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
For some reason, I have seen people unnecessarily place Town Markers on Dedicated Town Track Tiles. Dedicated Town Track Tiles have either one entrance to the Town or three entrances to the Town and the Town is actually printed on the tile. They do not need Town Markers placed upon them, the Town is actually printed on the Tile.

1) The town tiles have a circle which is the perfect size to place a marker upon. After playing games like Puerto Rico, having a white circle and a round grey wooden piece that fits perfectly is virtually explicit instruction to place the marker into the circle.
2) The town tile circles are white, while the town markers are grey. If the town circles were grey or the town markers were white, it would be less ambiguous.
3) Scanning the board for one type of item (grey markers) is easier than scanning for two types of items (grey markers and white circles).
4) I don't believe the rulebook specifically mentions whether to place markers on the town tiles or not.


The original game had both town circles and town counters as white. Martin wanted grey, and told LudoFact (the German contract manufacturer) but forgot to tell the Warfrog graphics artist. No big problem, the 2008 printing will have both as white.

As for 4), look at the Track Tiles section (page 3) of your Age of Steam rulebook, all printings:

"Some Track tiles show a Town printed on them, these Dedicated Town Track tiles may only be placed on hexes with a town, like Milwaukee. When simple or complex track is placed in a Town hex, a Town counter, (grey wooden disc), is placed on the center of the Track Tile."

Little graphics are included in the text to further illustrate the written text.

John
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