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Subject: To those who've played a lot of both, really, which is the better game? rss

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GrandPop McPopenstrudel
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The 1st or later versions?

It seems like a lot of fans of the 1st edition dropped out after the release of 2nd and everything that went with it (ie the Battlefront fiasco), so it's not like there seems to be much opinion from those that have played a lot of both systems.

I was one that dropped out, so I have no opinion on 2nd edition. There were elements that on paper I didn't like, for example the movement changes, infantry cover saves, dice and so on.

However, having not actually played the newer one, and accepting that sometimes things can work in practice despite not looking good in theory, I'm open to some experienced player's opinions of the matter.

I remember for example dudes saying at the time of the changeover that the new movement diminished the tactical element, was this actually true or just fans clinging on to the ways of the old?

Enlighten me guys.
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Martin Larouche
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I stayed with V1.

The problems of V2, to me:

1) Infantry cover save "everywhere" is dumb. Dust Tactics already has a system for damage VS any kind of armour and unit type. They could have worked the infantry save in the stats of the guns themselves. Reduce the number of dices of every gun against infantry and you won't need cover saves. They understood this with V1... With V2, infantry cover save is just throwing dices for the sake of throwing dices.

2) Increased movement and range give the illusion of more tactical choices, when in fact it doesn't and cause problems. If you keep the same map layout as with V1, then it's possible for most units to just move from cover to cover, without ever being shot at, which is ridiculous (and was impossible to do with all but the fastest, rare, units in V1).
So you need to space out the cover to remove that problem. Which brings problem #3.

3) You need twice the table space to play as with V1, because of the increased range and movement.

4) Minor point, but the newer dices don't bring anything new to the game and are harder to read. You can still use the old dice to play, until you roll initiative or some special unit ability that specifically requires them.

5) Reactive Fire is borderline broken in V2. In V1, it was usually a last ditch effort that rarely worked. In V2, it's too easy to do. So you can do an awesome flanking tactic, take them completely out of cover and start to shoot at them, only to have the defender do reactive fire and destroy you before you can even shoot at them. This turns the game into more of a random dice-fest.

6) The buckets of dices. I didn't like Winter Child in V1 because of the insane amount of dices he needed to throw. They could have made him just as strong by increasing his damage per dice and lowering the amount of dices. The probabilities wouldn't have been 100% the same, but they would have been close enough that it wouldn't have mattered.
Now in V2, almost every other unit can throw around 16 to 20 dices. Some ridiculous ones can throw over 30... To me, this just screams bad game design.
"Hey look, people like to throw dices!"
"Let them throw more dices!"
"How much?"
"So many, they won't even be able to hold them all in their hands to throw them!"
"But why?"
"So they'll have to buy tons of dices pack from us..."
"Ah, i see".
"And make them faction-specific. So many will buy several sets of dices just so they can play the 'proper' dice for their separate armies".
... this is the only reason i can see for the new dices and the ridiculous amount of dices needed for V2.
V1 had only 12 dices in the original core set, and it was more than enough for the most part. V2, you need double the amount.

7) LOS rules became needlessly complicated. Before it was trace a line from the point to the other point. We never had any questions as to wether we had LOS or NOT, or if we had cover or not. In V2, trace several lines from your square to the other, from different corners... figure out cover and blocking terrain... with the increased range, the question is even more difficult, causing pointless and avoidable arguments around the table. What, exactly, was wrong with the V1 LOS rules that they needed to change so dramatically? My only guess is the corner save, which was harder to do because of the increased range as to become pointless. So the idea of increasing movement and range had repercussions on every aspect of the game and none of them were for the better.

The good points of V2:
- Facing for vehicles. I like how it plays. Simple, but gives a little more to walkers.

- Smaller cards for less of a footprint on the table.

- Cards are better layed-out.

The cons clearly outweight the pros by a mile...

Even Dust Warfare knew better than to tinker around with the ranges, movement and number of dices, which are all very close to V1.
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sacha cauvin
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I like the newrule set with the under-fire-suppression system.

New platoons rules too.
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GrandPop McPopenstrudel
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I was hoping you'd chime in, Deedob. It doesn't look like you've changed your appraisal of the game from when 2nd edition was released.

Your opinion and a few others swayed me into not pursuing the game from that point. I was annoyed by the tabletop space increase and talk of number of dice thrown in attacks, amongst other things.
EDIT: reactive fire does not sound good, anyone else feel the same?

@ General Hoth: Yeah, I find both of these ideas appealing and they would seem like natural additions to the original ruleset.

1st edition was far from perfect But I feel fixing those few things that stood out as not great, like aircraft and some LOS rules, rather than reinventing it would have been more positive for the game and not splintered the fanbase like it did.

I hear that FFG owned the 1st ed ruleset or some such so if that's true, I guess the old ruleset was at the end of the line anyway.
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Matt Siegel
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I've tried 3 games with the new v3 rules available from their website. They're a touch wonky since the new cards won't be out and free on their website in a couple of weeks.

To be honest, I was very skeptical and was glad not to have participated in the KS fiasco. The new rules are a pretty good mix of each ruleset that has been released (OCS, v1, v2). Just need those new cards!

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David Stahler Jr.
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I've played every version (V1, V2, Warfare) except the latest (V3), and can say V2 is, by far, our favorite. We pretty much exclusively play Battlefield (V2 sans grid) and find it plays smoothly while still providing plenty of depth.
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Dave Smith
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Version 2.5 for me, the BF one with a few mods.
1) They done away with all models being able to fire all weapons.
2) Introduced armour 1 guys and severely reduced dice thrown against them to make them worth taking.
3) Nerfed the OPP plane rules - but went too far to make them useless.
4) Don't need a bigger table at all due to movement, plays just as well.
5) Introduced suppression that didn't severely penalise the suppressed like Warfare does.
6) Admittedly LOS rule is awful, so just play dot to dot.
7) Added saving throw for vehicles in cover and gave more variation for infantry saves as some weapons can ignore infantry save, some can't same goes for cover.
8) Fixed OTT units

I think the best bet is to play version 2 and mod with V1 and 3 rules.
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Marwan Marwan مروان مروان
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I think the original question here is mistimed.

V2 has not been supported for a while, and hasn't had the opportunity of time and play that V1 had to allow for changes and refinements.

Keep in mind that V1 wasn't born as the almost-perfect baby that it's being described as in the comments above. It went through a few revisions, and we can't forget the new cards that we all had to buy to continue playing the game. They even redid the entire point system.

V2 was almost stillborn, as everything collapsed before it could start breathing. Comparing it to V1 is unfair, but having said that, I enjoyed it much more than V1. The extra dice and infantry saves allow for better defined hit and defence ratios, and there are weapons that do counter those saves. You actually get variety and the ability to use more tactics. As for the comment on reactive fire, I've never been able to successfully do one

Onto V3, well...There isn't much to compare since the cards aren't out yet. But I played it with the V2 cards, and my friends and I found it very enjoyable. Much more refined than V2, and more fun than V1.

I recommend that we all come back here after the V3 cards get released. We'll all get an opportunity to put in a few plays before we start comparing and complaining

I avoided discussing the merits of Dust Studios' business decisions devil
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Cygnus 2112
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marwan_marwan wrote:
I avoided discussing the merits of Dust Studios' business decisions devil


That's because there is no merit to any of Dust Studios' business decisions...
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K G
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I wasn't born ! I sprang from the forhead of God , as he contemplated a particularly vile joke !
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first edition is by far the best , beyond its simple clarity and easy fast dynamics , it is also easy to mod units into .

while home brew units may sound bad , in this case its ind of a must because DG has shot it self in the feet soooooooo many times , sooo badly that they wont get another publisher to help them mass produce the game in the next decade so that their unit release schedule has suffered . additionally , paolos view that units arent worth including unless they have laser phasers or tesla weapons means that "mundane" units like tiger tanks , jeeps , any of the prop driven aircraft wont see light of day unless they have been cheesed up .

as was mentioned above , there are some issues with some of the rules in first ed like the aircraft , but those are easily remedied .

also , by sticking to the first edition you have one base set of rules to play by , where as there is little reason to hope that any new rule set that DG puts out will last very long before they either sell and take the license back or they just keep rewriting the rules with little concern for play balance .
 
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