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Subject: End game trigger and definitions rss

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We just played our first game of RRT on the weekend and I would like to get some terminology straight:

"The game ends at the end of a complete turn following the turn in which a certain number of Empty City markers have been played on the board."

1. Each player gets, by default, one action per round

2. There are three rounds in a turn

3. THUS, if we are on the first action of round 1 of a turn and with that action a player empties out the game ending triggering city, everyone else gets their rounds 1, then full round 2, then full round 3, then another round 1, 2, and 3 afterwards

Are all three items correct?

Thanks
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Yes
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Simon Derrick
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If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?
 
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Harald Torvatn
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DY_75 wrote:
If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?


The last empty city marker has still been placed on the board, so endgame remains triggered, and urbanization will not prolong the game.
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Simon Derrick
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Yeah, that's how I interpreted it too. Thanks for the quick reply.
 
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Darren Hron
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Harald wrote:
DY_75 wrote:
If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?


The last empty city marker has still been placed on the board, so endgame remains triggered, and urbanization will not prolong the game.


I would clarify that if the last city marker is placed in round one and urbanized in round 3, that end game is not met (because the turn had not ended) but if that turn ends with all the ECM out, then in that final round will not reset if urbanization happens.
 
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sasquatchdjh wrote:
Harald wrote:
DY_75 wrote:
If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?


The last empty city marker has still been placed on the board, so endgame remains triggered, and urbanization will not prolong the game.


I would clarify that if the last city marker is placed in round one and urbanized in round 3, that end game is not met (because the turn had not ended) but if that turn ends with all the ECM out, then in that final round will not reset if urbanization happens.


I interpret this rule slightly different than yourself. The way I see it, as soon as all empty city markers are on the board, the end game is triggered.
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Andrew DiGregorio
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sasquatchdjh wrote:
Harald wrote:
DY_75 wrote:
If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?


The last empty city marker has still been placed on the board, so endgame remains triggered, and urbanization will not prolong the game.


I would clarify that if the last city marker is placed in round one and urbanized in round 3, that end game is not met (because the turn had not ended) but if that turn ends with all the ECM out, then in that final round will not reset if urbanization happens.


darren are you sure about that? i had always played under the guide that as soon as the last marker is used, end game can in no way be forstalled...
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Darren Hron
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slyde wrote:
sasquatchdjh wrote:
Harald wrote:
DY_75 wrote:
If another player urbanizes after the "certain number" is achieved, can this change the end game trigger?


The last empty city marker has still been placed on the board, so endgame remains triggered, and urbanization will not prolong the game.


I would clarify that if the last city marker is placed in round one and urbanized in round 3, that end game is not met (because the turn had not ended) but if that turn ends with all the ECM out, then in that final round will not reset if urbanization happens.


darren are you sure about that? i had always played under the guide that as soon as the last marker is used, end game can in no way be forstalled...


Well it is the way we always played. I totally could be wrong.

We just saw it as if an ECM went out in round one the end of the TURN is not till the end of round 3. And it says that the ECM needs to be out at the end of the TURN, not at any time. Otherwise, would it not be more clear to say

"Once all ECM have been placed, play one more complete and final turn"

Or

"The end game conditions are triggered once the last ECM has been placed during any round. Play one more complete turn following this turn."

Arguably, a better way to say it as I see it is: "If at the end of a Turn all ECM have been placed, play continues for one final turn"

Has there been an official ruling I have not seen?

I know at one point, there were strong arguments that the game ended immediately after the last ECM was placed (well, the end of that turn anyway). That is really not how I see it though.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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sasquatchdjh wrote:
And it says that the ECM needs to be out at the end of the TURN, not at any time.


The rules do not say this. They say

Quote:
The game ends at the end of a complete turn following the turn in which a certain number of empty city markers have been placed on the board. (emphasis added)


The only reference to "end of the turn" is with respect to when the game actually ends, not to when the end of the game is triggered. In fact it is just the opposite, the end game is triggered during a turn, whenever the required number of ECMs have been placed.

And, yes, an official answer was given to this question.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/76613

However, it is your game and you can play it as you see fit. Your method, though, is a variant and has no basis in the official rules.
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Simon Derrick
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Thanks for the clarification & link Paul
 
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Psauberer wrote:
sasquatchdjh wrote:
And it says that the ECM needs to be out at the end of the TURN, not at any time.


The rules do not say this. They say

Quote:
The game ends at the end of a complete turn following the turn in which a certain number of empty city markers have been placed on the board. (emphasis added)


The only reference to "end of the turn" is with respect to when the game actually ends, not to when the end of the game is triggered. In fact it is just the opposite, the end game is triggered during a turn, whenever the required number of ECMs have been placed.

And, yes, an official answer was given to this question.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/76613

However, it is your game and you can play it as you see fit. Your method, though, is a variant and has no basis in the official rules.


ok, so i have been playing it "officially" correct. thanks paul.
 
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Darren Hron
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I didn't realize kieth bloom was martin wallace. And you can indicate on how wrong I am when answering a rules question as if I have insisted it as an actual rules final claim.

I guess Im seeing "a turn" as being looked at as the whole turn not just some point. I would think "following the point where all ECMs are out" or another thing.

Really its generally a moot ppoint since many cities seem to empty at once and it cant be backed out regardless. I argue that it is NOT clear and saying it another way would be more clear.

More to the point I wish all games would stick to standard glossary of terms. But that is a post for another area.
 
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sasquatchdjh wrote:
I didn't realize kieth bloom was martin wallace.


You asked if there was an official ruling. Keith Bloom was, at the time, the official representative of the publisher. It is the publisher who has the final say on the rules of the games they produce, not the designer. Many games change through the course of devfelopment and it is the publisher who bests understands the big picture.

Even if we stipulate your erroneous objection to why the rules are not the way you want them to be and why you refuse to accept that, Keith was an official representative of Eagle Games and thus an official mouthpiece for Glenn Drover, who is the other person credited with the design. So, you have an officially sanctioned ruling from a direct representative of a designer. Trying to claim that unless your interpolation (since it's not an interpretation) must stand until you get shot down by everyone with a designe credit on the game seems rather stubborn.

Quote:
And you can indicate on how wrong I am when answering a rules question as if I have insisted it as an actual rules final claim.


Well, when you jump in and give a "clarification" that does not qualify itself in any way, but seems as if you are giving it as an official and correct rule, then it is hard to see it as anything other than a "final claim." If you had said, "We play it differently with this variant." that would be different.

Quote:
I guess Im seeing "a turn" as being looked at as the whole turn not just some point. I would think "following the point where all ECMs are out" or another thing.


You are seeing something that is not there. The plain words of the rule are clear. Only when you expect something else does it become cloudy. If they had meant at the end of the turn, the rule would have said "at the end of the turn." Instead it says, "in which" so you trigger the end game during the turn "in which" the last ECM is placed. Not "at the end of the turn." Not "at the end of the turn if there are still the number of ECMs placed." There are no other qualifiers in the rules. The official ruling just repeats what the rulebook says.

Quote:
Really its generally a moot ppoint since many cities seem to empty at once and it cant be backed out regardless. I argue that it is NOT clear and saying it another way would be more clear.


There is probably no rule that will be clear to 100% of readers, particularly if they want to see something else. How you can claim your interpolation as correct when it doesn't say anything about the end of the turn impacting the trigger, I don't understand. That would be extremely unclear, not the rule as written and intended.

Quote:
More to the point I wish all games would stick to standard glossary of terms. But that is a post for another area.


I can see how that would be a desire if one has problems with contextualizing.
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Kyle Meighan
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I would say that you could "forestall" the endgame by urbanizing.

This is because otherwise you would have to keep track of every ECM placed every time. Let me explain by example.

Lets say for simplicity that 10 ECM are needed for endgame trigger.

During the game the 5th ECM is placed. Then a grey city is urbanized removing the 5th ECM. Eventually 5 more are placed and triggers the endgame. In reality 11 ECM's were placed.

Now how is this different then if 9 are placed and then when the 10th is placed a grey city is then urbanized with the final one getting placed later?

I guess what I am saying is does it matter whether the endgame is forestalled earlier than when the last one is placed?

I hope somebody understands this, because I do, but am having trouble explaining it.

(*edit: In the spirit of full discolsure I should tell you I haven't played the game yet. *)

-One Wolf
 
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Paul Sauberer
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One_Wolf wrote:

This is because otherwise you would have to keep track of every ECM placed every time.


No, you don't.

The end game trigger is when the last available ECM is placed on the board. That's it. Not when a total of xECMs have been placed. Not when a turn ends with all ECMs placed.

As soon as there are no available ECMs to place, the end game is triggered.

What happened before that last ECM hits the board or what happens afterwards is irrelevant and has no impact on the end game trigger.

At whatever point you place an ECM and there are no more to place, that triggers the game. It doesn't matter if it is the 11th, 12th, 18th or 472nd ECM placed in the game. As long as there has always been at least one left available to place, then the end game was not triggered.

If you urbanize and make one available when there were none available before, it doesn't matter. The end game has still been triggered.
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Kyle Meighan
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Ok.

It just seems silly to me that when the second to last city is empty I can urbanize a city to then require two more to be emptied, but when the last one goes down I can't do anything to stop the endgame. The outcome should be the same, just the order of operations is different.

For example, in a turn:

Round 1: 2nd to last Grey city is emptied.
Round 2: Grey city is urbanized.
Round 3: Another city is emptied.
(Game continues)

or;

Round 1: 2nd to last grey city is emptied.
Round 2: Another city is emptied.
Round 3: Grey city is urbanized.
(End game triggered, game will end next round)

This just doesn't make sense to me. The exact same things were done with no different effect to the game except in the second example the game ends while in the first it continues.

But that being said I'll play my first game by the "official" rules. I'll see how it goes, then later I'll try the variant of allowing urbanization to forestall the endgame on the last empty city.

Only after playing both ways will I be able to really tell which I like better.

-One Wolf


 
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Paul Sauberer
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One_Wolf wrote:
Ok.

It just seems silly to me that when the second to last city is empty I can urbanize a city to then require two more to be emptied, but when the last one goes down I can't do anything to stop the endgame. The outcome would be the same, just the order of operations is different.


It is not the same outcome, as it forces a player to empty more cities to trigger the end game. It could lead to ridicuolos play.

What about the situation where someone puts the last city marker with their first action, then someone else urbanizes, the original player empites again, then someone else urbanizes again?

That is definitely not the same outcome, as it forces a player to empty multiple cities to get the end game to come. This could change the selected actions significantly.

The rules as written are very clear and also make the end game trigger known that it can happen, yet still with an element of doubt as to whether someone will pull that trigger. With your proposed variant, the gun may often misfire, leaving a lot of randomness at the end of the game.

Quote:
But that being said I'll play my first game by the "official" rules. See how it goes, then later I'll try the variant of allowing urbanization to forestall the endgame on the last empty city.

Only after playing both ways will I be able to really tell which I like better.


It's your game to do with what you wish, of course.

Are you often in the habit of trying various changes to thoroughly playtested and published rules just to see which you like better? Or is this a special case?
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It's not about how many have been placed, it's about how many are on the board. Once the game ending number of cities are all empty at the same time, the game end is triggered.
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I added an example to my previous post, you were very quick.

And to answer your question, this is a unique case. I'm usually not big on variants, but the "official" rule just doesn't sit well with me on this one.

But as I said before, I have not played yet, so I can't fairly judge.

-One Wolf
 
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Psauberer wrote:
What about the situation where someone puts the last city marker with their first action, then someone else urbanizes, the original player empites again, then someone else urbanizes again?


I thought you could only urbanize grey cities, and only once. Am I wrong about that?

-One Wolf
 
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One_Wolf wrote:
I added an example to my previous post, you were very quick.


But your example is only one where your variant can come into play. There are many other situations (such as what I gave above) where your variant would make a big difference in the board situation and how play proceeds.

Quote:
And to answer your question, this is a unique case. I usually not big on variants, but the "official" rule jsut doesn;t sit well with me on this one.

But as I said before, I have not played yet, so I can't fairly judge.


I owuld suggest that if you like the way the game plays with the official rules, don't bother with a variant that was not adopted during playtesting just to try it out. There is little reason to reinvent the wheel if the one you have rolls fine.

If it still doesn't work for you, though, then do what you want.
 
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And my only point is, that your example could happen one empty city earlier without the variant. Would that be any more or less "ridiculous?"
 
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One_Wolf wrote:
And my only point is, that your example could happen one empty city earlier without the variant. Would that be any more or less "ridiculous?"


I don't know what you mean. How could the original player end the game with your variant one empty city earlier without making a second emptying when there is still an ECM available after the second urbanization?

My point with my example is that your variant would require the original player to empty a second city to end the game instead of making another, possibly more profitable delivery. The same thing does not happen in both cases.

Your variant moves the end game trigger so that it is unknown when it will happen until the game actually ends. Up until that point someone can roll it back.

Yes, the end game is somewhat arbitrary, but so is any game with a set number of turns or a set victory point end game trigger. Do you also have a problem with those games?

You seem to be stuck on this concept of some cities can be urbanized after the end game has been triggered. There is no connection between the overall number of cities that are emptied and the end game. The end game trigeer is tripped by a board state, which is represented by the number of ECMs on the board. How many cities were emptied or not at any other point of the game is irrelevant. Maybe if you think of it as the end game being triggered by a certain level of demand saturation occuring (since the "delivery" of cubes actually represents routes established and not discreet goods being delivered) it might make mroe sense to you. What happens after that saturation point (i.e. some increased demand) doesn't change the fact that the saturation point had been reached. You can't unring a bell.

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I just want to clerify, that 9/10 times it is a moot issue as there is usually many more empty citys than ECM by the end of the Turn.

Very rarely has someone Urbanized after the last ECM was placed, thus "preventing" the end game under our under standing of the rules. Thinking about this some more, I guess where it is apparently unclear to me is to when to do the end game check. (Think flow chart or while loop). We read that the check is at the end of the turn, not after every player action. mostly because the rules talk about turns not rounds or player actions. I would say something like: "If at the end of any Players action there are no ECM left, the game will end after one complete turn following the end of the current turn"

(I actually lost my original more eloquent post, but this is the idea.)

Also I want to say for the record, that my last response was a tad snarky. I was having a bad day. I just wanted to apologize.
 
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