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Subject: "It Burns, It Burns!" Math Trade discussion thread rss

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David Spitzley
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I've just posted a new Math Trade at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/20879
 
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Carl Anderson
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Dspitzle wrote:
I've just posted a new Math Trade at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/20879


And I've just added several games to the list. Thanks for running the previous one (in which I got nothing!), and thanks for running this one (in which I hope to receive something decent).
 
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David Spitzley
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carl67lp wrote:
Dspitzle wrote:
I've just posted a new Math Trade at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/20879


And I've just added several games to the list. Thanks for running the previous one (in which I got nothing!), and thanks for running this one (in which I hope to receive something decent).


Good God, we're already onto the second page, and the list has been posted for only an hour and a half! I've created a monster!
 
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Jeff Bakalchuck
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Dspitzle wrote:
carl67lp wrote:
Dspitzle wrote:
I've just posted a new Math Trade at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/20879


And I've just added several games to the list. Thanks for running the previous one (in which I got nothing!), and thanks for running this one (in which I hope to receive something decent).


Good God, we're already onto the second page, and the list has been posted for only an hour and a half! I've created a monster!


I think you mean a half hour, BGG uses central time not eastern time.

35 items in the first 30 minutes. To quote Chief Brody "you're gonna need a bigger boat"
 
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David Spitzley
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Boomer wrote:
Dspitzle wrote:
carl67lp wrote:
Dspitzle wrote:
I've just posted a new Math Trade at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/20879


And I've just added several games to the list. Thanks for running the previous one (in which I got nothing!), and thanks for running this one (in which I hope to receive something decent).


Good God, we're already onto the second page, and the list has been posted for only an hour and a half! I've created a monster!


I think you mean a half hour, BGG uses central time not eastern time.

35 items in the first 30 minutes. To quote Chief Brody "you're gonna need a bigger boat"


I thought something funny was happening there. We're now up to the third page in under one hour. This could be a big one. If we break 600 items, I'm going to add a second day for Genetitrade to chew on the Want Lists.
 
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Carl Anderson
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Dspitzle wrote:
I thought something funny was happening there. We're now up to the third page in under one hour. This could be a big one. If we break 600 items, I'm going to add a second day for Genetitrade to chew on the Want Lists.


I don't know about the others, but my entries were spurred by your GeekMail. Otherwise I likely would not have added anything until much later, if at all.
 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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Dspitzle wrote:

I thought something funny was happening there. We're now up to the third page in under one hour. This could be a big one. If we break 600 items, I'm going to add a second day for Genetitrade to chew on the Want Lists.


Based on the enormous one that Genetitrade launched on, adding another day won't get you much. A few more trades - maybe a full 1% increase in traded vs. not, but not significantly more.

I'm happy to see more experimentation, though.

Oh, and my swift reaction was due to a Google Alerts email about Genetitrade appearing on that page, which I saw even before your Geekmail. Good idea, that. I wonder if there'd be interest in a Math Trade announcement email list, to be used only for announcements - no discussion.
 
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J.D. Schipper
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dyfrgi wrote:
I wonder if there'd be interest in a Math Trade announcement email list, to be used only for announcements - no discussion.


I think there would be a lot of interest in that. I know I'd sign up.
 
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Jason Tuttle
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Vydar wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
I wonder if there'd be interest in a Math Trade announcement email list, to be used only for announcements - no discussion.


I think there would be a lot of interest in that. I know I'd sign up.



Me, too!!1!!1!1
 
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Amy O'Neal
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I added this quickly because of your email... The only reason that some of these didn't get added on the last trade list was cause I'd been in one list before and didn't match the "new trader" criteria...

And I'd also be interested in the email list announcing new math trades...
 
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Ron G
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Tack on another vote for a math trade list. I'd sign up for that in a heartbeat.
 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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Okay, given the interest in the math trade mailing list, I'll set one up. I'll post about it in this thread, and in a new one. It should be up later this week.
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Jeff Bakalchuck
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Dspitzle wrote:
If we break 600 items, I'm going to add a second day for Genetitrade to chew on the Want Lists.


Well, you're half way home, list is over 300 now.
 
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Carl Anderson
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Alright, at this point it's bugging me enough to bring this up.

From the description: "This Math Trade is intended for games which you just want to get rid of." (emphasis mine)

Now, the sentence following also mentions no restrictions on items, but in any event the idea is to trade games. I'm fine with Geek Gold as a trade item--after all, it's part of the community. But with all of the DVDs that are all of a sudden being tossed onto the list...it makes me irritable. And I don't like being irritable. shake

I don't have any intention of jumping ship--to do so would be unethical, after all, plus there are games on the list that I'd like to have a crack at--but I think it's just a matter of principle that math trades of this nature are meant for games, not DVDs or whatever else we can grab out of our closets.

If that were the case, I'd offer up a desk lamp that I can no longer find a bulb for. Maybe it'd net me a copy of Pizza Box Football.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Carl, if you are not interested in the non-game items then simply ignore them, you are not forced to put anything on your want list(s) that you don't want in trade for your items. There are plenty of "games" in any given geeklist that I simply ignore.

Why does it bug you so much? If may indeed bomb, but if successful, it could mean more of the game items may be trading thanks for the trade chains created.

Being the person who 1st asked David if it was ok to try posting some DVD's, the reason I did so was because of the nature of this particular math trade, ie. lots of smaller items. It doesn't make sense for some of us to offer our larger more expenstive to ship (and likely more valuable) for trade games, but DVD's are relatively inexpensive to ship (more so I would assume than your lamp ). Board Game "Geeks" tend to also be "movie geeks" as well (large overlap in the demographic ).

In past math trade where we were faced with the TradeGenie limit of 499 items, opening up a MT to non-game items meant they could be displacing real game items if the list filled up. With Genetitrade there is no limit on the number of items so that dilema doesn't exist.
 
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Carl Anderson
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JeffyJeff wrote:
Why does it bug you so much? If may indeed bomb, but if successful, it could mean more of the game items may be trading thanks for the trade chains created.

I considered your latter point, and I agree it might work to our benefit. Why do I have a problem with it though? Because I fear that it's a big snowball--that people see a game they want and rather than adding a game of their own they simply add a DVD or something. Before you know it, there are more DVDs (or GeekGold, or poly bags, or...) than there are games.

I doubt that it would occur in this particular trade, but I am concerned that it is starting a dangerous precedent.

JeffyJeff wrote:
In past math trade where we were faced with the TradeGenie limit of 499 items, opening up a MT to non-game items meant they could be displacing real game items if the list filled up. With Genetitrade there is no limit on the number of items so that dilema doesn't exist.


While the dilemma indeed no longer exists, my concern is not leveled against the overall number, but the overall percentage. Again, I don't know that anything like that will happen here; I'm mainly pointing it out for future math trades.

I know I personally entered the trade expecting 100% games. While we're still well above 90% (I assume), it's no longer the math trade I was expecting. I think that is the irritating bit.

I'm not leveling my criticism at any one person in particular. Rather, it seems to be a case of monkey-see-monkey-do.

EDIT: Please see entry #318. Joke or not, I think non-games add clutter to the list (for those looking only for games) and makes it more difficult to cull through what we're looking for.
 
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Jeff Bakalchuck
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Having been the person listing Geekgold on the last math trade, I guess I'm the person that started the "non-game" snowball down the hill, permit me a few moments on the soap box.

What I did in David's previous math trade, and Jeff did this time, was ask the moderator before posting, which I hope anyone listing non-standard items would do.

I don't see it being a problem for future math trades, since the moderator has the power to reject any content and even reject individual traders if necessary.

And I agree with Jeff that more items mean more possible trades. In the Try Try Again math trade, 3 of my Geekgold lots went and in some of the runs as many as 4 of them went. Without the Geekgold items, it's likely that some games that traded would not have.

As for the issue of clutter, well just among the games, I'd say that at least 75% I have zero interest in and just skip over those. I suspect that most people just skip over a similarly high percentage of items.

The ultimate proof is in the numbers. One person did complain about the Geekgold being listed, but it seemed to be a popular item as it was on a lot of wantlist. Will a lot people put Jeff's DVD's on wantlists? that's the real question. I'm considering it.

To me one of the neat things about math trades is they are very democratic. No one is required to list anything in their wantlists, unless you make a mistake, you can never get something you don't or overpay for something you do want.
 
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J.D. Schipper
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As long as we're discussing what makes games move or not, I have a question. I've heard people mention in passing that certain games might "break" a math trade. I'm curious how a game could "break" the math trade. Will having hot items on a list like this (for example, Battle Lore) mess up the other trades that could have happened if it wasn't added?

I actually wasn't sure if I should have added my Munchkin game as there really are very few if any things I've seen that I want to trade it for. Most things aren't even worth the shipping cost of Munchkin to me.
 
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Stephen Roney
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Vydar wrote:
As long as we're discussing what makes games move or not, I have a question. I've heard people mention in passing that certain games might "break" a math trade. I'm curious how a game could "break" the math trade. Will having hot items on a list like this (for example, Battle Lore) mess up the other trades that could have happened if it wasn't added?


The removal of limits on the numbers of entries in a wantlist helps reduce the problem. Basically, if everyone wants the same games, it is harder for the lower stuff to trade. If everyone makes their wantlists reasonably realistic, with a couple of items which should be out of reach and the rest in the correct ballpark, price-wise, then more things will trade.

In the last trade, someone expressed surprise that their game didn't trade, when in fact, it had appeared on many want lists, but did not want enough items to make it into the trade.
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Jeff Michaud
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Vydar wrote:
As long as we're discussing what makes games move or not, I have a question. I've heard people mention in passing that certain games might "break" a math trade. I'm curious how a game could "break" the math trade. Will having hot items on a list like this (for example, Battle Lore) mess up the other trades that could have happened if it wasn't added?

There may have been a few rare math trades where there were lots of high valued items that lots of folks tried trading way up for, but I'm not aware of any math trade where a single highly wanted item could do that.

Plus before GenetiTrade the popular trade resolver was TradeGenie, and it had a limit of 60 items on any want list (not to mention it had trouble scaling if everyone submitted long want lists). With the removal of any limit on the number of items one may have on their want lists, as long as folks (myself included) who try to over reach (trade up) also include realistic items on their want lists, then no harm no foul (ie. it shouldn't break anything).

Some folks have tried what are called 2-tiered math trades, similiar to running a 2nd chance with the leftovers from a regular math trade. 2-tiered are done by having folks put a separator somewhere in the middle of their set of wants to separate them into more highly wanted items, and still wanted, but not as highly. The trade resolver is run 1st with only everyones 1st set of wants, then after some amount of time, the rest of the wants are added in. While these I believe as would be expected produce fewer trades over all, the ones found by the 1st pass are technically higher quality.
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Jeff Michaud
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Boomer wrote:
As for the issue of clutter, well just among the games, I'd say that at least 75% I have zero interest in and just skip over those. I suspect that most people just skip over a similarly high percentage of items.

Exactly. Also at least in my case, I have items on my want lists already that I wouldn't have otherwise have on them due to the fact that for the cost of even the lowest valued games I have for trade in my collection, and the cost of shipping, I would be able to buy new copies of the games on my want list for the same price.

I do agree with Carl partly that if the ratio of non-games to games gets too high, it could be a problem. Maybe I should have also noted that I limited myself to just 5 DVD items because I didn't want to flood the math trade with them (I have lots more DVD's that I no longer have an interest in either watching for the 1st time or watching a 2nd time).

Do note that this isn't the 1st math trade that has allowed non-games... see B. Perry's (TradeGenie's author) math trade http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/16217 It had a limit of 200 items, and 56 trades were found.

The math trade that did fail was B. Perry's "buy/sell/trade" math trade (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/15648)... it allowed items that were simply "cash"... only 23 game items were submitted, and 6 offers of cash. Of course it also had the problem that there was BGG downtime during it, and lots of confusion over who would pay the BGG Marketplace seller fees (for games that traded for cash).
 
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Jason Maxwell
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sroney wrote:

In the last trade, someone expressed surprise that their game didn't trade, when in fact, it had appeared on many want lists, but did not want enough items to make it into the trade.


Actually, that was me, and I wasn't expressing surp[rise, just showing the other side of the coin to somebody who was surprised that their games which were on very few lists actually trades. Such is the nature of math trades.

I had purposely made my lists very short, as there were a few items that I really wanted, and I wasn't going to be all that upset if my items didn't trade otherwise.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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My online want list generator tool is setup to service this math trade. See http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/159648

For those that didn't use it last time because you needed to provide your BGG password for authentication, the authentication process has been replaced with one that doesn't use your BGG password (instead you just provide your BGG username, and a geekmail is sent to that BGG username with a link you use to then confirm you are who you say you are).

A couple new features have also been added, see http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1442191#1442191 ... specifically being able to see the item descriptions in step 4 (the matrix editor), and a way to specify an alternative name to be displayed for those of us with items identified as "Outside the Scope of BGG".

Note: the view list (step 3) is a snap shot of the geeklist and not updated in real time. I take a new snapshot a couple times a day, and of course after the list is closed to new submissions.

Please use http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/159648 for all comments and problem reports with the tool.

Jeff
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James Perry
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My 0.02 on the non-game items.


As long as they have some real world value, or community value (ie ), then I have no problem with them. My problem comes with the "service" items, such as our hosts offer to run a math trade in exchange for some game.

Non-game items have been a part of math trades for over a year. From to cash to DVDs to magazines to comic books. Some times they trade, sometimes they don't. With the removal of artifical constraints on what can be in a trade, I don't care what anyone tries to trade, it is up to each participant to decide if they want to trade for that item.

The "service" items though strike me the wrong way. I suppose in time I won't care about them either. So take that at what is worth.
 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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Regai wrote:

As long as they have some real world value, or community value (ie ), then I have no problem with them. My problem comes with the "service" items, such as our hosts offer to run a math trade in exchange for some game.


The problem with service items is defining acceptance of the item. In many service-for-goods exchanges (e.g. feature bounties offered by open source projects), the service must be provided before the goods are sent. In the case of a math trade, the reverse is true: the game is sent before the service (running a math trade) is performed. This is required by the nature of math trades.

What happens if whoever receives David's "run a math trade" item isn't happy with it? I'm sure that David will work to make sure this doesn't happen, but it's a lot easier to say "you didn't run the math trade the way you promised" than to say "this game isn't what I was expecting it to be".
 
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