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Subject: Multiple Cruiser contacts? rss

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Jochen Balzer
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Last week I had a game with a special situation.

I was flying to Persephone aiming to start a job.
With the move onto the planet I drew the Nav card Cruiser contact (shuffle nav cards).

I had no contraband or fugitives but I had Jayne, a wanted crew member.
I didn't roll a 1 so I kept him.

In my next move I didn't want to move away from Persephone since I wanted to start my job.

My wife asked me to reroll the Wanted roll for the alliance cruiser since I didn't leave the sector. I said that the alliance didn't find anything on my ship so why doing a check again?
When I wanted to start my job which needs me to load 2 contrabands the discussion started again.

The cruiser contact card says that immediately when you are in the same sector (not enter the same sector) with the cruiser, so a check.

But when I look at the "story" of what happens I would say that there is only 1 alliance check of my ship and afterwards they "think" that my ship is clear.

So 2 questions:
- do I have to reroll a warrant roll?
- may I load and keep contraband or fugitives while in the same sector as the cruiser?
 
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Roger BW
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The cruiser contact is triggered when the cruiser enters your sector or you enter the cruiser's sector. FAQ 4.1 p. 6:

Quote:
Each time you encounter the Alliance Cruiser, you only need to resolve the Alliance Contact Event once. If the Alliance Cruiser moves out of your space, then moves back into it, you would need to make Wanted Crew Rolls again. If you and the Cruiser stay put, you don't need to check again.


And yes, you may conduct illegal activity under their noses.
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Thorfinn Skullsplitter
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Wow. She really had it out for you.

I recommend next time do the dishes BEFORE the game instead of promising to do them after. whistle
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richard spangle
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Firedrake wrote:
The cruiser contact is triggered when the cruiser enters your sector or you enter the cruiser's sector. FAQ 4.1 p. 6:
Quote:
Each time you encounter the Alliance Cruiser, you only need to resolve the Alliance Contact Event once. If the Alliance Cruiser moves out of your space, then moves back into it, you would need to make Wanted Crew Rolls again. If you and the Cruiser stay put, you don't need to check again.
And yes, you may conduct illegal activity under their noses.

to quote Mal and Zoe from The Train Job:
Mal: Come on. We stick to the plan, we get the goods, we're back on Serenity before the train even reaches Paradiso, only now we do it under the noses of twenty trained Alliance feds and that makes them look all manner of stupid. Hell, this job, I would pull for free.
Zoë: Then can I have your share?
Mal: No.
Zoë: If you die can I have your share?
Mal: Yes.
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Jochen Balzer
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OK, thanks guys.
 
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Based on my understanding of the rules I believe your wife was right.

On page 7 of the rules for the initial game the definition of an outlaw ship is pretty clear about Wwanted Crew making your ship an Outlaw ship.

Also you might want to check GF9's FAQ V4.

Question: If a Legal Ship is sharing a Sector with the Alliance Cruiser and becomes an Outlaw Ship, does the Alliance Contact Event happen immediately?
Answer: Yes. Any time a clean, Legal ship is in the same Sector as the Alliance Cruiser and becomes an Outlaw Ship, it is immediately subject to the Alliance Contact Event.
Follow-Up Question: What if an Outlaw Ship becomes a Legal Ship as the result of the Alliance Contact, but then becomes an Outlaw Ship again, all while staying in the same Sector?
Answer: They would have to resolve the Alliance Contact again.

So if the job you were going to start required loading the contraband; then at that moment you are again an Outlaw Ship and the contact would need to be resolved immediately. Since you loaded the contraband you would then also have to re roll for wanted crew.

We use this tactic sometimes when we play to keep someone from completing their job. We will move the Alliance Cruiser to where the job starts and attempt to keep it there.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
 
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George Krubski
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Sorry, MP, but you are the bearer of INCORRECT news.

The original poster started as an Outlaw Ship, had an encounter with the Alliance, and REMAINED an Outlaw Ship, so there's no need to have another Alliance encounter.

A new encounter would be required under two circumstances:

1) If either ship moved and they re-encountered each other.

2) If the ship became "clean" (ie, NOT an Outlaw ship), then became Outlaw again.

For example, I have Jayne in my Crew. I move to Persephone and encounter the Alliance Cruiser.

If I LOSE Jayne (and assuming Jayne was the only reason I was an Outlaw), I have a new encounter if I become an Outlaw again... for example, by loading Contraband or by hiring Simon Tam.

However, if Jayne STAYS on my ship, I remain and Outlaw and do not have to have another encounter with the Alliance ship if I do additional Outlaw activity.


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Hi Gwek;

Well I have been wrong before.

For the sake of clarification; If I had Jayne on my ship and he evaded capture from the initial contact, would my ship then be to all appearances considered a legal ship to the Alliance? - I would assume so.
Part of my reasoning is in the Bushwacked episode; after the encounter the Alliance did allow the Firefly to carry on as a legal ship.

Since the ships are still in the same sector on my next turn; I would not have to roll for Jayne. Is this correct?

My challenge with the scenario is that if at the beginning of my turn I then start a job by loading contraband; by definition wouldn't I now be an outlaw ship? It seems to me that if I am loading contraband on my ship while I am parked beside an Alliance Cruiser; I have a pretty good chance of being caught.

If so I then must immediately resolve the Alliance Contact.

I may be wrong; as I said, it has happened before.

Besides; if i am wrong, the other way will make the game a lot easier.


 
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George Krubski
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Here's where I think you may be getting confused: an encounter with the Alliance Cruiser does NOT remove Outlaw status. It just makes you... not suspicious.

Let me try to talk this through, adding a new term "Suspicious."

When you become and Outlaw ship, you are also immediately considered Suspicious.

If you have an Alliance Cruiser encounter, they check your ship for suspicious persons and activities, temporarily removing your Suspicious status. Whether they actually FIND anything or not, they assume that they did a thorough job, so you are clearly not suspicious anymore!

However, if something about your ship allows you to retain Outlaw status (ie, having Jaybe on your ship), you are still an Outlaw. You just aren't Suspicious anymore.

The Alliance Cruiser doesn't really care about you until you become Suspicious again.

This can occur in at least three ways:

1) Leaving the Sector while you are still an Outlaw (The Alliance doesn't know what you did while you were gone, so they need to reexamine you if you cross paths again)

2) The Alliance Cruiser leaving while you are still an Outlaw (The Alliance doesn't know what you did while THEY were gone, so they need to reexamine you if you cross paths again)

3) By becoming an Outlaw ship again ONCE YOU ARE NOT AN OUTLAW SHIP by hiring Wanted Crew, taking on Contraband or Fugitives, getting Warrant, etc. (Presumably, there is some sort of report of suspicious activity that you've been implicated in)


On the other hand, if you are an Outlaw Ship, successfully face an encounter with the Alliance Cruiser (thus removing "Suspicious") and conduct additional illicit activity while still under the shadow of the Alliance Cruiser, they don't care.

Basically, it's like:

"Captain, we've received a report that a local Firefly is engaged in smuggling and hiring known outlaws."

"Oh, which ship?"

"It's called Serenity, sir."

"Serenity? They're clean. I was just there yesterday to check out potential suspicious activities. Nothing illegal going on, but they do have a crazy guy who names his guns. What a card."

"Should I follow up on the reports?"

"Don't waste the taxpayers' money, son. Just throw the report out."

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I actually was more onboard before your latest clarification.

Using your term; suspicious, if the alliance saw someone loading something suspicious onto a suspicious ship would they not want to check it out?

It would seem to me that if the Alliance had just searched and cleared your ship that at that point they would consider it legal. (Otherwise why would they let you go free?)

I do not believe that either of us is going to change our minds on this.

I know that unless GF9 rules against it; the group I currently play with does not agree to change how that scenario goes down. Especially as it does not change the play-ability of the game.
 
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George Krubski
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MP,to be clear, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to help you understand the rules as written, because your interpretation is wrong. I apologize if my attempt to clarify actually muddied the waters.

Certainly, if it makes sense for you and your friends to house rule it, that's very valid, but this is not a discussion of two different opinions. If my explanation didn't help, I would recommend that you read the rules and the FAQ, because it's all laid out there.
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Interesting;

I would point out that my original post stated that my comments were based on my understanding of the rules. (this would infer that I may actually have read them. I also did post an excerpt of the FAQ's & a reference to the rule book.) ( I also used an actual example from the show.)

The fact that this scenario came up on the forum kind of implies I am not the only one who thinks this way about those rules.

The challenge I had with your initial response had to do with whether or not after the original Alliance encounter the ship is considered Legal by the Alliance. To which you introduced the term suspicious.

To be clear; I have never said you were wrong, I asked for clarification.

I do feel your comment about my making it a house rule was unwarranted. As it is only the interpretation of the rules based on our understanding. No rule was created. One was interpreted based on the information available. As stated; if the Creators of the game state that we are incorrect; I am happy to relay that to our group. Also I have been following this forum for over a year and I find it ironic that someone who seems very willing to create rules to change the game would make that statement.

Also based on the tone & verbage of your last response it seems to me that this is about opinions.

But based on what you know you might be right.

I was not looking to cause trouble I was merely looking for clarification of your statements.
 
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George Krubski
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I'm sorry if I was a little sharp in tone.

I agree that the point is potentially confusing - but it IS pretty explicitly detailed if you give the rules and the FAQ a close read (unfortunately, although I love the game, the rules are sometimes as clear as mud on the surface.)

The assumption of yours that seems to be incorrect (in your example about Jayne anyway) is that an encounter with the Alliance Cruiser can somehow render an Outlaw ship "temporarily Legal" when what the encounter actually does is render the ship "temporarily of no interest."
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Carl Hanson
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Puts on Magic tournament hat.

Here are the rules that we have on this topic:

Firefly Rulebook wrote:
If, at any time, you are in the same Sector as the
Alliance Cruiser, you must resolve the Alliance Contact Event.


FAQ v4 wrote:
Question: If a Legal Ship is sharing a Sector with the Alliance Cruiser and becomes an Outlaw Ship, does the Alliance Contact Event happen immediately?
Answer: Yes. Any time a clean, Legal ship is in the same Sector as the Alliance Cruiser and becomes an Outlaw Ship, it is immediately subject to the Alliance Contact Event.
Follow-Up Question: What if an Outlaw Ship becomes a Legal Ship as the result of the Alliance Contact, but then becomes an Outlaw Ship again, all while staying in the same Sector?
Answer: They would have to resolve the Alliance Contact again.


FAQ v4.1 wrote:
Question: On my turn, the Alliance Cruiser lands on my space and I resolve the Alliance Contact Event, rolling for all my Wanted Crew. At the start of my next turn, do I have to roll
for all my Wanted Crew again?

Answer: Each time you encounter the Alliance Cruiser, you only need to resolve the Alliance Contact Event once. If the Alliance Cruiser moves out of your space, then moves back into it, you would need to make Wanted Crew Rolls again. If you and the Cruiser stay put, you don’t need to check again.


That last FAQ establishes the rule that you do not have to repeatedly resolve Alliance Contacts while sharing a sector with the Cruiser, even if you are there for multiple Actions or turns.

This sets up four situations when the game checks for possible Alliance contact:



A Firefly enters a sector containing the Alliance Cruiser.
Check:Is the Firefly an Outlaw ship?
Yes: Resolve Alliance Contact.
No: Continue turn. (Usually by drawing and resolving a Nav card, but if the Firefly is using a Mosey action the action will end here.)

The Alliance Cruiser enters a sector containing a Firefly.
Check:Is the Firefly an Outlaw ship?
Yes: Resolve Alliance Contact.
No: Continue the current turn.

The Alliance Cruiser Nav Card is drawn.
Check:Is the Firefly an Outlaw ship?
Yes: Resolve Alliance Contact.
No: Full Stop. (According to page 7 of the rules, this doesn't appear to require an Outlaw status. I think I've been playing this wrong all along.)

A Legal Firefly becomes an Outlaw Ship while sharing a sector with the Alliance Cruiser.
Result: Resolve Alliance Contact.




Notice that none of those circumstances include an Outlaw ship taking on new Crew, Contraband, or Fugitives. Therefore, by a strict reading of the rules, the OPs situation would not trigger a new Alliance Contact event.

I appreciate that this ruling may not feel flavorful, but I don't see any wiggle room in the rules here. Of course, there is the (perfectly fair) argument that sometimes in this style of game you are better off playing based on the "feel" of the rules rather than a strict reading, which I don't necessarily disagree with. After all, the Magic rulebook reads cleaner and the legal code in most states and it is all but impossible to learn the game from the rulebook; which is not an acceptable situation in a board game.

I apologize if this comes across as condescending. It is not my intention to insult or demean you, but that is the tone I tend to take when discussing rules so that I don't miss any details.
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Hey Carl;

I appreciate your input.

I did have a quick question.

I am curious how you would interpret the definition of an outlaw ship based on the original game rule book as depicted on the bottom of Page 7.

For myself; I think that the question is whether or not the ship in this scenario is still an Outlaw Ship after it has cleared the inspection even though it still has a wanted crew that managed to escape detection. (Therefore in the eyes of the law it is free to go.)

Because while I agree that unless there is mitigating circumstances for a new search; the Alliance would probably not keep re - searching the same ship. (The rules as you show; do bear that out.) Especially since they perceive it as a clean ship.

It would seem to me that loading contraband on a ship would be mitigating circumstances. (Probable cause for a search warrant)

What I have not been able to find any clarification on is whether the ship retains its' outlaw status after the search but before it leaves the sector.

Post hoc ergo proctor hoc. Is it the chicken or the egg?

By the way your post had a very; you give me the facts; I will show you the law feel to it. I liked it.





 
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Roger BW
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Shei Li wrote:
For myself; I think that the question is whether or not the ship in this scenario is still an Outlaw Ship after it has cleared the inspection even though it still has a wanted crew that managed to escape detection. (Therefore in the eyes of the law it is free to go.)

Because while I agree that unless there is mitigating circumstances for a new search; the Alliance would probably not keep re - searching the same ship. (The rules as you show; do bear that out.) Especially since they perceive it as a clean ship.
You could indeed decide to play it that way, but that's not what the rules and FAQ say; which are as Carl quoted, and seem to me quite clear. Outlaw Ship status is determined purely by who and what is on board.
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Turns out I was in fact wrong.blush

I decided to go back and re check all my rule books when I got home today.

I found this on a different part of the FAQ page. It would appear I missed that sentence before.

Question: An Outlaw Ship moves into the
Sector with the Alliance Cruiser and resolves the Alliance Contact Event, but is still an Outlaw Ship afterwards, because their Wanted Crew evaded capture. At what point do they have to resolve the Alliance Contact again?
Answer: Any actions the Outlaw Ship takes while staying in the same Sector as the Alliance Cruiser will not trigger another Contact Event. Only when the two Ships go their separate ways and come in contact again will the Outlaw Ship be subject to the Alliance Contact Event again.

So it would appear it is still an Outlaw ship after all.

Looks like we will be making a change. (although I did like the other way better; but, the rules are the rules.
 
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George Krubski
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Shei Li wrote:
although I did like the other way better; but, the rules are the rules.


Yes... but no. If you like it better another way, play it that way!

But it's better to know what exceptions you're making because it might impact something else, and if you ever play at another "table" (or the play-by-forums), it's good to know.
 
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