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Stronghold (2nd edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Mainly timing questions rss

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Esa Seuranen
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Played the game three times with my buddy (they took 7h, 7.5h and 6h... yes, we're a bit slow) and so far defender has won each game rather easily (we used default setup only for the first game... and ballista haven't appeared since then).

We like the game a quite a bit, but few (mainly timing) question have arosen. Thematically speaking things wouls happen simultaneously but for simplicity we have resolved one place (wall section/rampart/foreground) at a time (i.e., a trap can be trampled throught on one side and the gained knowledge taken into use on the other).

Anyways... on to the questions (thx for reading already in advance and sorry for the possible duplicate questions):

A. SPECTER: Any killed defender units at the chosen wall section are removed from the game... they don’t go hospital (+ reappear as invader units)? Sounds extremely effective (=almost game breaking) with Ballista...

B. DEFENCE PLANS: played before or after any action/stage (but not during stage, for example The Assault/Hospital)?
Example: wall construction plan could be used to erect 2 walls after Orc Detonation.

C. Invader manuevering:
I. invader decides one rampart/foreground how invader moves his units, i.e. 2 units to path A and 3 units to path B and then those moves are resolved simultaneously: for example, if there are unrevealed traps then they are revealed simultaneously?

II.Invader decides one rampart/foreground at a time VS Invader decides all ramparts/foregrounds at same time and they are considered to be resolved simultaneously?

III. I remember faintly seen/read that invader could move forward more units than there are space (when there’s an unrevealed trap): e.g. 4 slots on the wall and a trap on the path => moving 1 goblin, 3 orcs and 1 troll ensures that all slots are filled… but it is possible to end up with extra unit:
a) Is “over” moving allowed? And if so
b)What happens to extra units: Invader decides which extras are killed/moved back?
c) Would invader be allowed to do this even if there is no unrevealed trap, i.e., to free slots on rampart/foregrounds

IV. Invader units on walls are there until killed by defender (or by Orc Detonation/Goblin Fury) due Sharpshooters, Cauldron, Ballista, Poles, or strength comparison. In other words, if a wall section is in status quo (full of orcs) invader have no means to replace troops with better ones?

D. INVADER OBJECTIVES: resolved immediately VS after action/phase
Example - objective with 4 trolls on a wall section => convert 2 goblins to 2 trolls in any Rampart: when manuvering and 4 trolls have reached a wall section... should one finish entire manuever VS could do conversion in an unmanuevered rampart and move newly converted trolls into wall section directly.

E. ASSAULT (added 22.7.2016, since forgot in the original post): following the timing questions... do invader[defender] declare all wall sections[ramparts/foregrounds] their siege machines[cannons/poles] all at the same time VS one after each other (after results are known)?
Examples:
* Wall section with one wall and two catapults: Can invader fire first catapult there and then decide (depending on the result) where the other catapult fires?
* One cannon on both sides of the fortress: Can defender fire one side first and then depending on the result decide where the other cannon fires? For example if on the other side of the fortress there are one rampart with trolls only and foreground with goblins and ors
=> killing trolls would be nice, but if one of the troll-hits have already gone, then taking shot to foreground might be more appealing
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Mike
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Bump.

I also need answers to many of these questions...
 
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RyuSora
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A. SPECTER: Any killed defender units at the chosen wall section are removed from the game... they don’t go hospital (+ reappear as invader units)? Sounds extremely effective (=almost game breaking) with Ballista...
Specter only affects one wall section and at the end of the turn, the token is returned to the invader supply.
For this, you should return the defender units to the supply (not the hospital), and place units of the same strenght on the foreground, place units that were previously removed from the game, if it is not enough, pick units from the pouch. Remember defender units are never removed from the game, they always return to the supply in casa they are 'removed'. This is a quite strong ritual, but it is not that easy to pull off.



B. DEFENCE PLANS: played before or after any action/stage (but not during stage, for example The Assault/Hospital)?
Example: wall construction plan could be used to erect 2 walls after Orc Detonation.
Yes. You may use defense plans at any given time during the game. Remember every defense plan have some sort of instant penaulty or permanent penaulty.


C. Invader manuevering:
I. invader decides one rampart/foreground how invader moves his units, i.e. 2 units to path A and 3 units to path B and then those moves are resolved simultaneously: for example, if there are unrevealed traps then they are revealed simultaneously?
My understand is that you resolve each rampart at a time and same goes for foreground.


II.Invader decides one rampart/foreground at a time VS Invader decides all ramparts/foregrounds at same time and they are considered to be resolved simultaneously?
My understand is that you resolve each rampart at a time and same goes for foreground.


III. I remember faintly seen/read that invader could move forward more units than there are space (when there’s an unrevealed trap): e.g. 4 slots on the wall and a trap on the path => moving 1 goblin, 3 orcs and 1 troll ensures that all slots are filled… but it is possible to end up with extra unit:
a) Is “over” moving allowed? And if so
b)What happens to extra units: Invader decides which extras are killed/moved back?
c) Would invader be allowed to do this even if there is no unrevealed trap, i.e., to free slots on rampart/foregrounds
You may not move more units than there is space for them to move on. Except when there is a revealed trap that will clearly kill the 'over moving' unit. In this case, you move 4 units to a space that can only hold 3, you only 1 unit and move the other 3.

IV. Invader units on walls are there until killed by defender (or by Orc Detonation/Goblin Fury) due Sharpshooters, Cauldron, Ballista, Poles, or strength comparison. In other words, if a wall section is in status quo (full of orcs) invader have no means to replace troops with better ones?
Correct, since you may not move units backwars, those units will stay there until destroyed by the defender (remember that Advantage will also kill enemy units if there is any) or the invader with some skill or even the ballista.

D. INVADER OBJECTIVES: resolved immediately VS after action/phase
Example - objective with 4 trolls on a wall section => convert 2 goblins to 2 trolls in any Rampart: when manuvering and 4 trolls have reached a wall section... should one finish entire manuever VS could do conversion in an unmanuevered rampart and move newly converted trolls into wall section directly.
When you complete an objective, you must resolve it. So you could convert 2 goblins into 2 trolls on any rampart, and if that rampart wasnt already activated during this manouver step, you could manouver those trolls now.

E. ASSAULT (added 22.7.2016, since forgot in the original post): following the timing questions... do invader[defender] declare all wall sections[ramparts/foregrounds] their siege machines[cannons/poles] all at the same time VS one after each other (after results are known)?
Examples:
* Wall section with one wall and two catapults: Can invader fire first catapult there and then decide (depending on the result) where the other catapult fires?
* One cannon on both sides of the fortress: Can defender fire one side first and then depending on the result decide where the other cannon fires? For example if on the other side of the fortress there are one rampart with trolls only and foreground with goblins and ors
Same rule for cannons, poles and siege machines.
Let me explain further, for cannons you first decide a target for each cannon, then you reveal one card for each cannon and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.

For siege machines, decide a target for each siege machine, and then flip the top card of each machine and resolve it's effect. If it a miss, discard the card from the game and reshuffle the deck. If it is a hit, resolve it, and then return the card to the respective deck and reshuffle it.

Let me explain further, for poles you first decide a target for each pole, then you reveal one card for each pole and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.



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ryusora wrote:

Same rule for cannons, poles and siege machines.
Let me explain further, for cannons you first decide a target for each cannon, then you reveal one card for each cannon and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.

For siege machines, decide a target for each siege machine, and then flip the top card of each machine and resolve it's effect. If it a miss, discard the card from the game and reshuffle the deck. If it is a hit, resolve it, and then return the card to the respective deck and reshuffle it.

Let me explain further, for poles you first decide a target for each pole, then you reveal one card for each pole and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.


if I may ask - where is it written that each canon, pole and machine works this way? I saw this answer few times on threads but never found anything for back it up. All the rules says is: "The Defender selects which Foreground or Rampart each Cannon will fire upon. Turn over
one Hit card per Cannon."
It can be understood on two ways. Was there some official statement about it? In ROdney Smith awesome video he doesn't seemed to play the way you say. Well actually his explanation does not put emphasis on either way to play it.


 
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donatello23 wrote:
ryusora wrote:

Same rule for cannons, poles and siege machines.
Let me explain further, for cannons you first decide a target for each cannon, then you reveal one card for each cannon and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.

For siege machines, decide a target for each siege machine, and then flip the top card of each machine and resolve it's effect. If it a miss, discard the card from the game and reshuffle the deck. If it is a hit, resolve it, and then return the card to the respective deck and reshuffle it.

Let me explain further, for poles you first decide a target for each pole, then you reveal one card for each pole and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.


if I may ask - where is it written that each canon, pole and machine works this way? I saw this answer few times on threads but never found anything for back it up. All the rules says is: "The Defender selects which Foreground or Rampart each Cannon will fire upon. Turn over
one Hit card per Cannon."
It can be understood on two ways. Was there some official statement about it? In ROdney Smith awesome video he doesn't seemed to play the way you say. Well actually his explanation does not put emphasis on either way to play it.




I understand that siege machines are clear for you but you are still unsure about poles/cannons.

"P.10
CANNON
Location: Tower
Effect: During Ranged Combat, choose this side’s Foreground,
or any Rampart opposite or adjacent to the Tower.
Reveal the top card of the Defender Hit deck. Kill one of the
indicated Units. If more cannons shoot, resolve all cards
and then reshuffle the deck."

Cannon A will shot X - reveal card and resolve
cannon B will shot Y - reveal card and resolve
cannon c will shot Z - reveal card and resolve
After all cards are revelead and resolve, reshuffle. Same rules when poles attack.
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ryusora wrote:
donatello23 wrote:
ryusora wrote:

Same rule for cannons, poles and siege machines.
Let me explain further, for cannons you first decide a target for each cannon, then you reveal one card for each cannon and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.

For siege machines, decide a target for each siege machine, and then flip the top card of each machine and resolve it's effect. If it a miss, discard the card from the game and reshuffle the deck. If it is a hit, resolve it, and then return the card to the respective deck and reshuffle it.

Let me explain further, for poles you first decide a target for each pole, then you reveal one card for each pole and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.


if I may ask - where is it written that each canon, pole and machine works this way? I saw this answer few times on threads but never found anything for back it up. All the rules says is: "The Defender selects which Foreground or Rampart each Cannon will fire upon. Turn over
one Hit card per Cannon."
It can be understood on two ways. Was there some official statement about it? In ROdney Smith awesome video he doesn't seemed to play the way you say. Well actually his explanation does not put emphasis on either way to play it.




I understand that siege machines are clear for you but you are still unsure about poles/cannons.

"P.10
CANNON
Location: Tower
Effect: During Ranged Combat, choose this side’s Foreground,
or any Rampart opposite or adjacent to the Tower.
Reveal the top card of the Defender Hit deck. Kill one of the
indicated Units. If more cannons shoot, resolve all cards
and then reshuffle the deck."

Cannon A will shot X - reveal card and resolve
cannon B will shot Y - reveal card and resolve
cannon c will shot Z - reveal card and resolve
After all cards are revelead and resolve, reshuffle. Same rules when poles attack.


I'm sorry I haven't been clear enough with my doubts. I will try this way:
YOUR VERSION OF TIMING:
1. designate targets for all cannons
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat p2 for cannon B, then C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

OTHER VERSION OF TIMING (which I think I'm more willing to think is correct)
1. designate target for cannon A
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat steps 1 and 2 for cannon B, than for cannon C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

yes your timing is more thematic (they all fire at the same time) but even in the qoute you gave above there is no plural - just singular: "choose this side’s Foreground, or any Rampart opposite or adjacent to the Tower. Reveal the top card of the Defender Hit deck." So it sound to me like you choose one target for any one cannon and resolve the fire. Than you move to next one and so on.

What do you think?

ps. yes I'm ok with siege machines
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donatello23 wrote:
ryusora wrote:
donatello23 wrote:
ryusora wrote:

Same rule for cannons, poles and siege machines.
Let me explain further, for cannons you first decide a target for each cannon, then you reveal one card for each cannon and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.

For siege machines, decide a target for each siege machine, and then flip the top card of each machine and resolve it's effect. If it a miss, discard the card from the game and reshuffle the deck. If it is a hit, resolve it, and then return the card to the respective deck and reshuffle it.

Let me explain further, for poles you first decide a target for each pole, then you reveal one card for each pole and resolve it. Reveal one card and give it to cannon A, reveal second card and give it to cannonb B. After resolving all cannons, reshuffle the hit deck.


if I may ask - where is it written that each canon, pole and machine works this way? I saw this answer few times on threads but never found anything for back it up. All the rules says is: "The Defender selects which Foreground or Rampart each Cannon will fire upon. Turn over
one Hit card per Cannon."
It can be understood on two ways. Was there some official statement about it? In ROdney Smith awesome video he doesn't seemed to play the way you say. Well actually his explanation does not put emphasis on either way to play it.




I understand that siege machines are clear for you but you are still unsure about poles/cannons.

"P.10
CANNON
Location: Tower
Effect: During Ranged Combat, choose this side’s Foreground,
or any Rampart opposite or adjacent to the Tower.
Reveal the top card of the Defender Hit deck. Kill one of the
indicated Units. If more cannons shoot, resolve all cards
and then reshuffle the deck."

Cannon A will shot X - reveal card and resolve
cannon B will shot Y - reveal card and resolve
cannon c will shot Z - reveal card and resolve
After all cards are revelead and resolve, reshuffle. Same rules when poles attack.


I'm sorry I haven't been clear enough with my doubts. I will try this way:
YOUR VERSION OF TIMING:
1. designate targets for all cannons
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat p2 for cannon B, then C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

OTHER VERSION OF TIMING (which I think I'm more willing to think is correct)
1. designate target for cannon A
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat steps 1 and 2 for cannon B, than for cannon C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

yes your timing is more thematic (they all fire at the same time) but even in the qoute you gave above there is no plural - just singular: "choose this side’s Foreground, or any Rampart opposite or adjacent to the Tower. Reveal the top card of the Defender Hit deck." So it sound to me like you choose one target for any one cannon and resolve the fire. Than you move to next one and so on.

What do you think?

ps. yes I'm ok with siege machines


Sorry if i wasn't clear on this, i meant exactly the latter.

After each hit is resolved. choose the next cannon and choose a target and resolve a new card.
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Luke Piefer "Luke Luke The Orange"

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In the absence of an official ruling, my first inclination would be to follow the order of the text strictly. In other words, you have to designate each target first before any of them fire. This would mean that you can't let the results of one card affect your choice of the next target.

Otherwise, it would have been easy to say: "Choose a cannon and decide where it will fire. Draw the top card and resolve the attack. Then repeat this process for each cannon without replacing hit/miss cards previously drawn." Of course, we can't give this particular rulebook credit for deliberately choosing the wording they used over my suggested alternative, but normally one should assume a very intentional choice of wording and there wouldn't be any controversy here at all.

It's probably pretty balanced as long as you use the same interpretation for cannons, poles, and defender barrage machines, but an official ruling would be nice.
 
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coolhandluke121 wrote:
In the absence of an official ruling, my first inclination would be to follow the order of the text strictly. In other words, you have to designate each target first before any of them fire. This would mean that you can't let the results of one card affect your choice of the next target.

Otherwise, it would have been easy to say: "Choose a cannon and decide where it will fire. Draw the top card and resolve the attack. Then repeat this process for each cannon without replacing hit/miss cards previously drawn." Of course, we can't give this particular rulebook credit for deliberately choosing the wording they used over my suggested alternative, but normally one should assume a very intentional choice of wording and there wouldn't be any controversy here at all.

It's probably pretty balanced as long as you use the same interpretation for cannons, poles, and defender barrage machines, but an official ruling would be nice.


I recently got official ruling from Portal which states that this version is the proper one to play:
1. designate target for cannon A
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat steps 1 and 2 for cannon B, than for cannon C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

so yes, you can wait and see if you hit with first cannon / machine before you designate target for another ones
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Luke Piefer "Luke Luke The Orange"

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donatello23 wrote:
coolhandluke121 wrote:
In the absence of an official ruling, my first inclination would be to follow the order of the text strictly. In other words, you have to designate each target first before any of them fire. This would mean that you can't let the results of one card affect your choice of the next target.

Otherwise, it would have been easy to say: "Choose a cannon and decide where it will fire. Draw the top card and resolve the attack. Then repeat this process for each cannon without replacing hit/miss cards previously drawn." Of course, we can't give this particular rulebook credit for deliberately choosing the wording they used over my suggested alternative, but normally one should assume a very intentional choice of wording and there wouldn't be any controversy here at all.

It's probably pretty balanced as long as you use the same interpretation for cannons, poles, and defender barrage machines, but an official ruling would be nice.


I recently got official ruling from Portal which states that this version is the proper one to play:
1. designate target for cannon A
2. reveal card for cannon A and resolve hit or miss
3. repeat steps 1 and 2 for cannon B, than for cannon C, etc
4. reshuffle the deck

so yes, you can wait and see if you hit with first cannon / machine before you designate target for another ones


Thanks!
 
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