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Subject: 2nd Edition has gone to print rss

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Craig Besinque
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We have finalized 2nd Edition and Tony Curtis informs me that the production process is underway (China). The plan is for 2nd Edition to be available for Christmas 2016.

Craig
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Sean Burns
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Great news! Will we have access to 2nd edition rulebook prior to release?
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John Smales
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Oliver Ludwig

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till when can your order as p500? is it to late?
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Brian Evans
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Not sure when the end is, but you can pre-order now!
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Oliver Ludwig

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Need a new credit card and wait till monday for my salary.
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W. Cracker
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Yeah!!! The wait is almost over. My orders been in for close to a year but it will be worth the wait
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Ric Manns
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Craig,

Will we get a view of the new map? I am not sure if you would even know that, but I thought I would ask. I am on the fence about the upgrade kit....

Thanks,
Ric
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Craig Besinque
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map gone to print
Rick,

2nd Ed map: I'll have to check with GMT on that. Ditto Rules.
Kinda doubt it (I wouldn't let them out prior to publication myself).

The map is mounted, but looks identical with these minor changes:

Canada is BritHome dark blue, single area, forest bdr to USA.
Add Mtn border in mid-England,
Add Danube River to S and W of Rumania,
Add forest bdr W of Murmansk,
Sahara extends to Suez,
No Sov 3cv Moscow icon, add 1cv Fort Gib, 1cv Inf Karachi icons.
Town dots in Gib and Malta.
Correction for Azores = Straits.

Craig
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Ric Manns
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Craig,

Thanks for the info. It looks as if I need to upgrade for the map. Our group loves the game!

Thanks,
Ric
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Craig Besinque
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Ric,

Honestly, I would go for the upgrade kit.
It includes the new mounted map, the thicker, bigger (5/8") rounded-edge counters, and the new 2nd Ed rulebook. $20/P500.

The new mounted map alone is $14/P500.

Your call of course.

Glad you are loving T&T. Getting going on C&C (Conquest and Calamity, the Asia/Pacific version). Jack Greene was just here visiting and we played around with a prototype a bit. He thought it looked like it had potential.

Craig
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Dan Zachary
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cbesinque wrote:
Getting going on C&C (Conquest and Calamity, the Asia/Pacific version). Jack Greene was just here visiting and we played around with a prototype a bit. He thought it looked like it had potential.

Craig


I'm seeing dollar bills floating out of my wallet.
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Hugo Soares
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sharpe1813 wrote:
I'm seeing dollar bills floating out of my wallet.


I'm seeing the same... but with euros!
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Michael Sosa
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Is the counter-mix going to be messed with? It seems we have an unnecessary number of planes, not that we have run short of anything else, except for Forts but that may be a design decision.
 
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Craig Besinque
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Michael,

No change to the unit mix.

The idea was to allow almost any conceivable force mix (except Forts, which were deliberately limited).

As you will notice, the 2nd Ed upgrade kits do not contain labels, so no 2nd Ed units changes were in the cards (not that we thought any were needed).

Craig
 
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Mike Szarka
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Is the revised rulebook available yet?
 
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Craig Besinque
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Re: 2nd Edition rules availability.
Mike,

Have to check with GMT on that, but doubt they want it given out before it is available for sale.

The significant rules tweaks are as discussed here.
There are also multiple rules rephrasings and clarifications (which do not change the way the game is played).

Craig
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Alberto Natta
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I'd have liked an added technology mix.
 
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Alberto,

From my perspective, T&T is a finely balanced game in which one change affects the dynamics. No one's saying that the game is perfect, but any changes would require a lot of play testing to make sure that they're not too unbalancing.

For example, let's say that two new and cool technology cards were added: one is printed on 6 cards, and the other on 4 cards. That would add 10 new cards to the deck of 51. This would have the following effects:

- The odds of drawing any particular card would be reduced, and so would the odds of pairing a technology.

- This might have the effect of players choosing *not* to save technology cards, but rather simply obtaining and spending them on production instead.

- Or, if a player were trying to pair an Atomic Research 4 to win, they'd have to draw about 20% more cards than before.

Then, you'd also need to find *opposite* technologies on each of the new cards, which would change the number of cards for some technologies.

So, it's not that adding new technology cards would necessarily be bad, it just means a lot of play testing would have to be done to see what kind off consequences the additional technologies would have on the game.

Hope that this makes some of the design choices clearer.

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Alberto Natta
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That may be circumvented (not raising the card numbers) by "tiering" techs.

Like Tank Tech Tier 1, and Tank Tech Tier 2, etc.
At worst one would have to add "counters" instead of cards to represent the "selected" technology.

Let us have an example on "airplane" technology of sort - currently there is Precision Bombing, Heavy Bombers, and Jets.
One can add something like Dive Bombers, Naval Bombers, etc.

Then instead of having the named technologies you have Tier 1 Air Tech - and a player may choose between Heavy Bombers (or Long Range Planes, whatever you want to name it), and Dive Bombers.

To unlock a Tier 1 technology still allows you to develop another Tier 1 technology for airplanes - and unlocks the Tier 2 ones. (Which may have Jets for example and Precision Bombing).
 
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Alberto Natta
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Adding another suggestion.

I may be wrong here - but I feel the "troops on the field" at the end of the game should matter something.
The game "magically" ends in 1945 - fair do. But nations at war may keep waging war to each other for more years.

I am not sure how much balance this could give - I just feel though there is this gap. Production model counts in VPs, but not existing troops?

At the end of the game a quick "sum" of the pips on the map could be made. The one with the most (thus able to exert the strongest influence in military ways) may gain 2 VPs - at the end of the game; and the 2nd runner 1 extra VP.

A thing I feel ... odd ... instead is again by how the game "magically ends", in the Summer / Fall '45 odd moves happen. Who is the very last even (last Fall card) tends to leave entire highways open to do one shot go attacks (Troops do not count and no one can walk these 2-3 areas of open map toward Moscow or Berlin. The game ends).
 
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Re: Tiering Techs

Not a bad idea, Alberto. Once paid for, you can choose one from several "tech tree" options. This comes at a minor complexity cost, but requires a tracking mechanism as you pointed out.

The question is whether this diversity is worth it:

+ It provides a way to fine-tune your military in anticipation of your strategic plans.

+ It provides for greater variety in the way each Great Power operates.

- It adds some complexity and the need for tracking.

- It has to be weighed against combining technologies into more powerful versions! Some players feel that most technologies aren't worth it, Rocket Artillery being the exception. They say that they prefer to spend their production on increasing production, drawing more action cards, and purchasing more and different types of military units instead.
 
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Re: Counting VPs for Troops

Actually, one could argue the opposite case. A large, expensive military is a liability for "winning the peace" that follows. The Soviet Union suffered a severe manpower shortage at the end of 1945, not to mention the Germans and the British.

o None of the Great or Major Powers were in an economic position to continue this expensive war.

o Their populations were tired of the war, and their militaries were either morose or mutinous.

o As you point out, the problem is how to avoid the suicidal, last-minute moves of desperation at the end of the game. Avoiding an insane ending of the game requires a new dynamic to be introduced to squeeze down the war into peace with no "open highways" as you put it.

 
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Alberto Natta
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About technologies there is indeed the vibe that they're underpowered except the Rocket Artillery that is perceived as a must.
Motorized Infantry and Heavy Tanks are somehow useful (Depending who you play, almost ironically Axis tends to be the one benefitting the most of Motorized Infantry as they are the ones most oft fighting a 2 front war)

Airforces are rarely used, yes they allow to bring added "firepower" on limits to attack a province, but rarely this has proved something cutting the edge.
But airplanes hitting on 1 Naval and Ground units are not exactly game changers for a battle. Even the least on the seas where they can fight only 1 round.
The only good thing could be the Precision Bombing one - which forces the opponent to protect from. Then again to obtain meaningful effects one has to produce many planes which are otherwise not very useful - and as tradeoff how much you can do with the same steps of INF?

Sonar I've never seen it player, and Naval Radar rarely came into play when played (Soviets rarely have a navy at all. Axis tends to keep it small).

Given the perception Infantry is king at the present, to have a tech to up Armour fire at G3 and Airforces at G2 seems almost a necessity to me.

I dare say there is also the factor that troops / production is so little, that for the most of the nations to build up something that is not ground units look very counter productive on the long term.

Axis is -forced- to produce a big land army; they discard AF because they are sort of useless against land units and do not stop conquest.
Since Axis is forced into that (because to do ships in abundance leaves them pants down to a Soviet which may exploit the momentum) and the Soviets litterally have no interest in Navy (Why should they? Geographically by default they cannot block the Med, neither they've oversea resources they badly need to defend - to start with at least) - ships are ultimately something the West has (And will get ships for free from the USA side too - which - if they've no targets on sea, are much less efficient in ground support).
That sort of denies interest for naval assets.

Airforces are intrinsically weak in their design, and players adjust to that. To have them more dangerous (G2 / N2) simply sets the players into using them (and having to build them to protect from them).

Then it boils down to how much production one has and how many troops can just be smoked into a single turn. (My personal opinion is that production levels are just too low - I agree there must be the feeling there is not enough to build everything you want.)
On that note there could be "production technologies" too boosting military production (but not VPs).

To answer the points above - what you said is true for the historical war that triggered in '39.
That's not the same for T&T though, a war may erupt in '43 and powers may still be rather "fresh" so to say.


 
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juerg haeberli
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Alberto,

In my play environment the Axis often builds 2 blocks of fleet and some subs.
The fleet is built to capitalize on over optimistic western players.

We always see AF's in our games. Correctly used they really can be decicive or at least help a lot and they are the best screening unit in the game.

Tecnologies:
Hevy bombers are great for delivering da bomb.
Heavy tanks will be interesting once your meta game develops.
Wait until infatery aremies are overrun by tanks every other fight and you start using them.
You can also use tanks to counter rocket artillery tech.
Air defense radar can be decicive in the air war.

Production is low in the beginning but during mid to end game it is often between 15 and 20 which should be enough to "smoke" a lot of units.
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