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Ulisses
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Hello. I've already played a lot from both sides and feel that the Evil wins using Assassin is not so "nice" even when you are the assassin.

The main reason to exist the assassin, in my opinion, is to avoid a boring game where Merlin revel himself and good can win easily. I know that both sides have they unique aspects, but I feel a little "unfair" the Good side don't have a mechanism where they can "guess" who is an specific evil character to automatic win the game (as the Evil side have).
This issue was discussed plenty in topic: Modifying how Merlin is identified

I'm going to suggest 3 variants that I'm planning to use:

Simple Variant
Case 1 Evil win: nothing changes
Case 2 Good win:
-- if Assassin not kills Merlin: Good Win
-- if Assassin kills Merlin: Good and Evil have a tie
This variant is similar to this reply

Points Variant
Every Quest count 1 point. (Still 3 victories/fail to finish)
Assassin kills Merlin: +2 points
Assassin miss Merlin: -1 point
If Merlin/Percival revel himself (showing the card) during the game the Evil Wins.
The Assassin must always try to assassinate when:
Evil lose but have at least 1 point
Good lose but have 2 points


Merlin Enchant Mordred Variant
Needs Mordred in play. No one revel roles until game ends.
Case 1 Evil win: nothing changes
Case 2 Good win:
- if Assassin not kill Merlin: Good Win
- if Assassin kills Merlin: Merlin has his last spell: Enchant Mordred. If he finds Mordred Good Wins, otherwise Evil Wins

Variant Bonus
Mix Points Variant and Merlin Enchant Mordred Variant
Every Quest count 1 point.
Assassin kills Merlin: +2 points
Merlin Enchant Mordred: +2 points
Assassin miss Merlin: -1 point
Merlin miss Mordred: -1 point
Assassin and Merlin always going to try to kill/enchant


 
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John
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Proglin wrote:

Points Variant
Every Quest count 1 point.
Assassin kills Merlin: +2 points
Assassin miss Merlin: -1 point
If Merlin revel himself during the game the Evil Wins.
The Assassin must always try to assassinate when:
Evil lose but have at least 1 point
Good lose but have 2 points



I'm assuming you'd always do 5 missions? I think the results of this would be as follows:

5-0 or 4-1 to good, good are certain to win
3-2 to good evil win if they get the assassination correct (so same result as normal rules)
5-0 or 4-1 to evil, evil are certain to win (effectively same as normal rules)
3-2 to evil is a draw if evil fail to assassinate Merlin, evil win if they succeed.

So the result of this is that good have a small chance of getting a certain win if they can prevent evil getting more than one win, and that evil can draw even if they are 3-2 up in the missions.

Proglin wrote:
If Merlin revel himself during the game the Evil Wins.

How do you plan on enforcing this? The nice thing about the official rules is that there can be no debate - if Merlin is obvious he gets killed. The only thing I can think of would be allowing the Assassin to reveal and attempt to kill Merlin during the game - if successful then evil win (not sure what happens if unsuccessful - I think the only viable option would be good win). Any other way of preventing Merlin revealing himself would be open to debate - I think the only restrictions on what you can say being the ban on describing you card art.
 
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John
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Proglin wrote:
the Good side don't have a mechanism where they can "guess" who is an specific evil character to automatic win the game

If you want something like that then the hunter module from The Resistance: Hidden Agenda is a bit like that. I still haven't played it though!
 
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Clyde W
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These variants won't work in practice, mostly because there are many ways for Merlin to reveal without coming out directly.
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Ulisses
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zabdiel wrote:

I'm assuming you'd always do 5 missions?

Proglin wrote:
If Merlin revel himself during the game the Evil Wins.

How do you plan on enforcing this?


Hi Zabdiel. I have changed the first post to try to make it clear.

It is only regular mission, as the default rule: 3 success or 3 fails.

So the cases should be:

Good / Evil:
3 - 0: Good Wins. If Assassin kills Merlin Good still wins. Points 3-2
3 - 1: Good Wins. If Assassin kills Merlin it is a tie. Points 3-3
3 - 2: Good Wins. If Assassin kills Merlin Evil wins. Points 3-4
0 - 3: Evil Wins. If Assassin miss Merlin Evil still wins. Points 1-3
1 - 3: Evil Wins. If Assassin miss Merlin Evil still wins. Points 2-3
2 - 3: Evil Wins. If Assassin miss Merlin is it a tie. Points 3-3

The "silly" rule saying if Merlin/Percival show their card before the game ends is just to avoid an automatic win if the score at the end of the second quest is: 2 - 0 or if Merlin/Percival lose their hope and try to force a tie when the Evil is 2 quests ahead.
 
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Ulisses
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zabdiel wrote:
If you want something like that then the hunter module from The Resistance: Hidden Agenda is a bit like that. I still haven't played it though!


Nice! I'm going to take a look.
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Pasi Ojala
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.. or just decide it was an intense and fun game, forget about the result and play another.
 
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Ulisses
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a1bert wrote:
.. or just decide it was an intense and fun game, forget about the result and play another.


Yes. In this case it is just to play vanilla Avalon without variants
 
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P Santos
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Basically, since assassinating Merlin does not automatically make Evil win, then, in the Point variant, Good can automatically win by having Merlin come out and score 3-0 quests. Even if Merlin gets assassinated, Good still wins, final score 3-2 in favor of Good.
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Ulisses
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ppsantos wrote:
Basically, since assassinating Merlin does not automatically make Evil win, then, in the Point variant, Good can automatically win by having Merlin come out and score 3-0 quests. Even if Merlin gets assassinated, Good still wins, final score 3-2 in favor of Good.


Yes. Merlin or Percival. This is why Evil automatically win if Merlin or Percival flip their card.
 
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John
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ppsantos wrote:
Good can automatically win by having Merlin come out and score 3-0 quests.

At least one evil play would need to counter claim, but are unlikely to be able make a plausible counter claim, and even if they do they are unlikely to get more than one fail.

Proglin wrote:
Yes. Merlin or Percival. This is why Evil automatically win if Merlin or Percival flip their card.


They don't have to flip their cards - just claim. Flipping your card isn't allowed anyway is it?
 
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P Santos
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zabdiel wrote:
At least one evil play would need to counter claim, but are unlikely to be able make a plausible counter claim, and even if they do they are unlikely to get more than one fail.

They don't have to flip their cards - just claim. Flipping your card isn't allowed anyway is it?


By 'having Merlin come out' I meant the real Merlin would proclaim he is Merlin. Of course, at least one Evil player (or all Evils) could counter claim. All who plans to claim that he/she is Merlin must first secretly write on a piece of paper who he/she thinks are the Goods and who are the Evils, before claiming he/she is Merlin, and before the first team building phase. The Goods (except real Merlin) would not want to bluff (they don't care if real Merlin gets assassinated as long as the Goods 3-0 the quests), and so would agree to this but won't write on piece of paper. Disagreeing would only out themselves as Evil.

Through the use of deductive logic, the written claims, and first few team votings, Goods would be able to deduce reasonably who Merlin is, before the first quest is undertaken. Once Merlin is ascertained, then 3-0 quests will soon follow.
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Pasi Ojala
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If you disallow Merlin from saying he's Merlin, at the same time you practically disallow everyone from claiming Merlin.
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John
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I'm not sure writing stuff down secretly then revealing it is in the spirit of the game. Regardless it seems fairly likely that Merlin could be deduced by discussion before the first mission went ahead - any evil player who claims Merlin and names a good player as evil is known to be lying by the player they named.

I don't think the point variant passes the "what happens when people claim their roles" test.

Coming up with variants that work is hard!
 
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John
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a1bert wrote:
If you disallow Merlin from saying he's Merlin, at the same time you practically disallow everyone from claiming Merlin.

Yes, and but what if I don't claim to be Merlin, just list who the evil players are? What if I claim who one of the evil players is, then later claim another? As Clyde says there are many ways for Merlin to reveal without coming out directly and it's impossible to ban them.
 
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P Santos
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a1bert wrote:
If you disallow Merlin from saying he's Merlin, at the same time you practically disallow everyone from claiming Merlin.


No, I meant only the real Merlin and the Evils would have an incentive to claim he/she is Merlin. The other Goods don't need to pretend to be Merlin since they don't need to protect him from assassination if they are going for 3-0 quest.

Writing stuff secretly may not be in the spirit of the game, but if it would guarantee a win for the Goods (or tie at the very worst), then it might be hard for the Goods to turn that option down (it won't be fun anymore though).

The problem I see, which I'm trying to bring out here, is that with the Point Variant, there will be certain Nash-Equilibriums to arise in the game: either the Goods regularly win or at least tie, Evils rarely win (by luck only).

So yes, coming up with variants that work is hard. Is that a testimony to the balance of this game?
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Greg Wilson
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On a completely different approach, you could look at Moriarty's Machinations, where both sides have a 'Merlin' and an 'Assassin' each.
 
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