$30.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Viticulture Essential Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Too luck dependent rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Nigel Pepper
msg tools
In several games recently, each time one player has suffered from not getting a mix of both red and white vines. When a game is quite linear i.e. plant, harvest, crush, bottle, supply, only planting white or red grapes is quite a significant disadvantage. We are thinking of having 2/3 vine cards face up and players can choose a face up card at a cost of 1VP. Has anyone else experienced this problem? If so what solutions or have you just chalked it up to bad luck?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aernout Casier
Netherlands
Nijmegen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When you start playing this game, luck appears to be very much an element. However, when you start coming to grips with the cards, many more strategies become apparent and luck (even though it can happen, especially on wine/order combinations) plays much less of a role.

You can decide to allow players to take one more vine card, which did not change much to the game play
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stéphane Martineau
Canada
Quebec
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I wouldn't say it's too luck dependent but there is some luck involve. You can always adjust your strategy to your situation but I've seen games where you only draw white wine car and red based order card cry. The worker you assign to draw different wine ou order card turn after turn didn't perform other important action. You can deal with it but the other player who has wine and order mathing card sure has an advantage. But he still has to play his strategy right in order to win and others players can block him. His road is still easier.

But it hasn't been de case in every game and even in those game, finding the right strategy to overcome that situation is a lot of fun and I found in this game (and many others) than the journey Is as fun as winning the game!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M.C.Crispy
United Kingdom
Basingstoke
Hampshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I recently had cause to reply someone who made almost this exact comment on the Eldritch Horror forums. I will make almost the exact same response: in a game held in as high regard as is this one, it's very unlikely that the outcome is highly luck-driven, an observation of this sort is most likely made by an unskilled player of the game - one who has yet to work out good tactics or understand the multiple strategies available. I made exactly the same mistake with The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, a game with which I am exceptionally unskilled.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Millar
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
While there is some luck in the game regarding which grape and wine order cards you draw, in my plays I've found that the good players tend to overcome the luck regardless of what cards they're given.

If the ONLY path to victory was filling numerous wine order cards, then I'd agree, but this game offers so many other paths. IMO, that's what makes it a great game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Bordelon
United States
Deerfield
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmb
I try this variant (Draw 2 wine and vine cards and keep 1, discard the other).

It works great for us.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1567722/card-draw-variant-d...

Also note though: Jamey (the designer) has chimed in to a few threads related to this with some great details on why they purposefully designed the game the way they did and you are supposed to find ways around your card draws.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1603811/double-change-reduc...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Browne
United Kingdom
Loughborough
Leicestershire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
That'd be true if the game had a linear strategy in the way that you describe. But actually the game has several paths to victory and different strategies that you can employ.

Getting 'bad luck' with your vine cards? Then try and get points from stuff other than wine orders.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave S.
United States
Des Moines
Iowa
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've gone into details before about how I did it, but I've been very competitive in the game by not completing wine orders. While there is luck involved with the types of vines, and orders cards, there are plenty of other ways to gain victory points.

Its all about knowing the ways to mitigate your luck, and if you aren't getting what you want, adjust your strategy instead of hoping for the right card to be drawn.

Visitor cards can be very powerful if used correctly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darin Bolyard
United States
Oak Grove
Missouri
flag msg tools
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
badge
In your world, I have another name. You must learn to know me by it. That was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.
mbmbmbmbmb
When your vine and wine order cards match, you will certainly have an easier time filling orders. But a player whose vine & wine cards don't match will still have plenty of options for gaining points. You just have to dig a little deeper into the visitor decks to make it happen.

These↑ two situations happened to my wife and I respectively last night. Hers matched remarkably well, and mine didn't. But I had a different kind of advantage. She completed 4 wine orders for the bulk of her points, and had plenty of wine to complete 2 more orders sitting in her hand. On the other hand, I struggled to complete just 2 orders. I caught onto my plight early enough to eek out enough points for the win (18-17). I secured 1-2 points each round via the tasting room/tours and the windmill/planting, and played visitors for most of my remaining points. I only ever had 4 bottles of wine in my cellars throughout the entire game.

In case you're wondering, I drew the wine supplier from my momma card, played it on my first turn to gain a wine in my cellar, then built the tasting room with my starting cash, and gave a tour for cash/1 point. I continued to cash in on that nearly every round. I later built the windmill and began planting vines each round thereafter to get a point there as well. Once I had both, I was usually securing 2 points each round. And my wife wasn't planting anymore at that point because she had already planted all the vines she needed and was focused on producing wine. I had played an earlier visitor that deducted 4 points from my score at the end if I didn't have at least $4 residual at game end.

I do have considerably more experience with the game than my wife. And I was given the opportunity from turn 1 to gain auxiliary points in every round. It was obviously a very close game (18/17), and had we been matched in experience, I daresay she would have won by a larger margin than I did. That's merely speculation, but I stand that matching vine & wine orders do make for a smoother road that's less dependent upon further card draws from the visitor decks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Burt
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmb
Quote:
When your vine and wine order cards match, you will certainly have an easier time filling orders.


But that is the crux of the problem: while there are other possible ways of getting VPs, fulfilling wine orders is the most productive way. If you can't get that engine going, based on unlucky draws, then while you may be able to eke out enough points to stay competitive with windmill, tasting room and/or various visitor cards, the person able to fulfill more orders is more likely to win. Personally, I don't like luck to be a major factor in a strategy game, which is why, though I enjoy Viticulture, I don't consider it to be a serious strategy game, like Agricola.

My advice to the OP: yes, getting the right cards is very important. Do what you can to increase your card intake: choose card draw actions (obviously), and buy the cottage early. Alternatively, buy Tuscany, which fixes this problem by 1) providing many more ways to draw cards, and 2) has a space that allows you to trade the crappy cards in your hand for others (or money, or VPs).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.