Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Indonesia» Forums » Rules

Subject: more rules questions (expansion, selling, last earnings) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: Indonesia [+] [View All]
Ryan O'Rourke
United States
Tobyhanna
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Several more quesions, please do your best.

On page 8, the rules say that "If a company has sold all its goods, that is, as many goods as it currently has on the board, it must expand for free."

We assume this means you do not have a choice, you must expand.

Then it says "The player expands 1 or more areas, depending on his R&D expansion track status."

Does this mean that if he has expansion level 3, he MUST expand 3 times? Or can he choose UP to 3?

Next, "These areas must be adjacent to one of the production zones of the company. A company can only expand into empty territory: a city or another company blocks the way. It is also not allowed to expand over sea areas, unless the two land areas are connected by an arrow."

We thought you could only expand your production company within the borders of the colored section where you founded your company. However, it appears from reading this, and then looking at picture at the bottom of page 8, that since the arrows point from different colored regions to one another, that you should be able to expand as far as you want across the map, so long as you do not bump into a city or a competing production company. Is this correct?

A seperate though related question, from the rules on page 7, it reads "Goods can be freely moved from an area to a neighboring area within a production zone, so it is not necessary for an area to be next to a ship. It is not possible to move goods to a city over land, not even if the producing area is right next to a city."

It appears that you can carry goods across land, through an unbroken chain of your same company's production counters. We assume that you must have at least ONE counter touching a particular sea area that your province borders in order to use that sea area, correct? So for the case of Java Tengah, if you placed your first counter in the bottom right area, you could only use the south sea area, not the 2 sea areas to the north of that province. But if you then expanded to the land area in the middle of Java Tengah, you could use any of those 3 sea areas to ship out any of those 3 goods, correct?

Now assuming that you CAN expand your production company into neighboring provinces, like from Bali into Nusa Tenggara Barat then into Nusa Tennara Timur, etc., can you decide for each good in that entire production company to use as a starting point any ship in any sea area that the entire production company touches? In some cases, like Maluku, this question wouly apply even if you CAN'T expand your production company into neighboring provinces. However, common sense tells me that it takes a ship to get from island to another, so my original thought was that you can NOT do this. But look at the case of Java Barat to Java Tengah to Java Timur, it is one land mass. So if you had a single production company that occupied that entire land mass, spread out over the 3 different provinces, could you choose for each good in that production company to ship out from any of the 4 different sea areas that touch upon that entire land mass? So for a counter in Java Barat, you could ship out of the sea area north of Java Timur? Some of the larger continents are even more pertinent for this question.


Unrelated to this, also on paragraph 8, it reads "Production companies have to sell as many of their goods as they can, even if this means they have a negative income due to transport costs on one or more of their goods."

I have found, especially with merged companies, that due to varying shipping routes and hull sizes, that the order in which you choose to sell each of the goods counters in a company and which shipping company you choose for each as well as which city you choose to send each to, can affect the quantity of your goods you are able to sell. Is it legal strategy to optimize your profits by planning which ones to sell so that it becomes impossible to sell other goods that you would have lost money on, that you may have been able to sell if you had sold them in a different order? Or is the mandate here that you must determine the order to sell your goods so that the MOST goods can possibly be sold, no matter what?


Now also unrelated to both of these, where it says "Last Earnings Double" on the same page (8), it reads "Because all money in the final operations phase is doubled, players should keep their earned money seperate in the last era. If the game continues to another round, move it to the cash at the beginning of the next year."

I don't understand this suggestion. First of all, you would always know for sure when you are in the last round, because mergers & acquisitions take place before operations. So you can see how many unclaimed deeds are left on the board, and whether or not this will be the last phase of the era.

Second, why keep your money seperate? Does it not accomplish the same thing just to collect and pay everyone double as you move along? Why wait until the end with a seperate stack of cash that you now have to double?


Finally, in turn order bid, let me straighten this out: is it a once-around bid, so that everyone has one chance to bid. Or does it keep going around until everyone passes? We all believed it to be a once-around bid, but the rules aren't completely clear on this.


Thanks everyone for their help! And enjoy Indonesia!!

Ryan
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Rice
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You must expand according to your R&D track. If its at 3, you must expand it by 3 if you were successful in selling all of its goods. It can expand over into other areas as long as its not blocked by other cities or production companies. This is a very effective way of keeping people from merging your company that you've worked hard to put together by expanding quickly in large size as well as blocking potential future production companies.

If your production company has goods touching any sea that has a boat, it can be used.

Each person takes a turn operating a company. Which one you operate is up to you but the one you choose must be fully operated to its maximum possibility.

its best to keep earnings separate when it might be possible its the last round.

we've played once around bid.

great game...its been too long since i last played!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Eisen
United States
Menlo Park
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
facesnorth wrote:

Now also unrelated to both of these, where it says "Last Earnings Double" on the same page (8), it reads "Because all money in the final operations phase is doubled, players should keep their earned money seperate in the last era. If the game continues to another round, move it to the cash at the beginning of the next year."

I don't understand this suggestion. First of all, you would always know for sure when you are in the last round, because mergers & acquisitions take place before operations. So you can see how many unclaimed deeds are left on the board, and whether or not this will be the last phase of the era.


You are in fact not always certain.

It is possible that the expansion of production companies already on the board will eliminate all legal placements for a production company that has not yet been chosen. If so, this unchosen production company never forms and is removed from the game. Depending on what else is still available, this might in fact trigger game end.

Not a frequent occurrence, but it is possible that the operation phase will determine whether or not it is the game end. If it is possible that it will on a given round, it is safest to keep earnings separate that round.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan O'Rourke
United States
Tobyhanna
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
dkeisen wrote:
You are in fact not always certain.

It is possible that the expansion of production companies already on the board will eliminate all legal placements for a production company that has not yet been chosen. If so, this unchosen production company never forms and is removed from the game. Depending on what else is still available, this might in fact trigger game end.

Not a frequent occurrence, but it is possible that the operation phase will determine whether or not it is the game end. If it is possible that it will on a given round, it is safest to keep earnings separate that round.


Ah, I see. So if the expansion of a production company creates the situation where one of the unclaimed deeds on the board would never be able to form a company because of the lack of legal goods placement, the unclaimed deed is IMMEDIATELY removed from the board? So by the time you enter the New era phase and check for game end conditions, it would already be gone and could trigger the game end? Interesting..

So in that case, you should keep a seperate money stack for operations throughout what would appear to be the last several rounds of era C, just in case this happens.

Ryan
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dani Wejayana
Indonesia
East Jakarta
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A seperate though related question, from the rules on page 7, it reads "Goods can be freely moved from an area to a neighboring area within a production zone, so it is not necessary for an area to be next to a ship. It is not possible to move goods to a city over land, not even if the producing area is right next to a city."

It appears that you can carry goods across land, through an unbroken chain of your same company's production counters. We assume that you must have at least ONE counter touching a particular sea area that your province borders in order to use that sea area, correct? So for the case of Java Tengah, if you placed your first counter in the bottom right area, you could only use the south sea area, not the 2 sea areas to the north of that province. But if you then expanded to the land area in the middle of Java Tengah, you could use any of those 3 sea areas to ship out any of those 3 goods, correct?

Now assuming that you CAN expand your production company into neighboring provinces, like from Bali into Nusa Tenggara Barat then into Nusa Tennara Timur, etc., can you decide for each good in that entire production company to use as a starting point any ship in any sea area that the entire production company touches? In some cases, like Maluku, this question wouly apply even if you CAN'T expand your production company into neighboring provinces. However, common sense tells me that it takes a ship to get from island to another, so my original thought was that you can NOT do this. But look at the case of Java Barat to Java Tengah to Java Timur, it is one land mass. So if you had a single production company that occupied that entire land mass, spread out over the 3 different provinces, could you choose for each good in that production company to ship out from any of the 4 different sea areas that touch upon that entire land mass? So for a counter in Java Barat, you could ship out of the sea area north of Java Timur? Some of the larger continents are even more pertinent for this question.


---->
Halo facesnorth, let me describe how I played with my friends, it is correct that you can carry goods across land, through an unbroken chain of your same company's production counters, in our game we never carried goods from island to another, the arrows only for expansion purposes.
I had case, I had rubber company in whole area of Kalimantan Barat and on the left bottom of Kalimantan Tengah. I could deliver all goods in Kalimantan Barat both sea areas, but i would've not used north sea area of Kalimantan just because my good in Kalimantan tengah adjacent to my goods in Kalimantan Barat.

by the way it has to be "Siap Saji" not "Siap Faji". In Indonesian, it means "Fast Food"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bro Dee wrote:
Let me describe how I played with my friends, it is correct that you can carry goods across land, through an unbroken chain of your same company's production counters, in our game we never carried goods from island to another, the arrows only for expansion purposes.
...
by the way it has to be "Siap Saji" not "Siap Faji". In Indonesian, it means "Fast Food"


So, is it possible to carry goods across islands or not? It's the last confusing rule in my mind.

What does "Siap Faji" mean, please?

Thanks.

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Low
United States
Mansfield
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pyjam wrote:
What does "Siap Faji" mean, please?


Siap Faji are the microwave meals that are made from rice and spice. They're the red counters.

-Greg
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
We will meet at the Hour of Scampering.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the rules governing transport of goods across a production company to a ship, there is no mention made of this process being restricted to the island of origin - only that it can be moved to any point within that production company.

While the inter-island distinction trying to be made certainly makes some sense in the real world, the designers obviously chose to simplify things in this regard. I, for one, am glad they did. Transport computation is fiddly enough without that particular headache.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you Kosh. When I'll have enough GG, my avatar will be Londo.

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are the goods markers limited or unlimited? What must we do if during the operation phase there is not enough markers? Thanks.

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmb
I believe this interpretation is incorrect. It says goods can move from an area to a neighbhoring area. Which as noted on the other thread we assume means any adjacent area but not to any area within a province/plantation. In short, I think the rules are clear that you can't move goods all over the plantation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
facesnorth wrote:
on paragraph 8, it reads "Production companies have to sell as many of their goods as they can, even if this means they have a negative income due to transport costs on one or more of their goods."

I have found, especially with merged companies, that due to varying shipping routes and hull sizes, that the order in which you choose to sell each of the goods counters in a company and which shipping company you choose for each as well as which city you choose to send each to, can affect the quantity of your goods you are able to sell. Is it legal strategy to optimize your profits by planning which ones to sell so that it becomes impossible to sell other goods that you would have lost money on, that you may have been able to sell if you had sold them in a different order? Or is the mandate here that you must determine the order to sell your goods so that the MOST goods can possibly be sold, no matter what?

After deliberations, I'm convinced that it's a legal strategy. Else, if I own a big company that can't sell completely its production (in my opinion), other players would have to check that my claim is true and prove that it's false. The game would become extremely tedious. My opinion is that the rules say "whatever the sequence you choose for delivering the goods, you have to sell as much as you can" and not "you must choose the optimal sequence".

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmb
We take a semi-18xx approach modified by time constraints. Basically the plantation owner gets to decide where and with whom to ship, however if the plantation owner does not ship all his goods and another player (realistically only shipping company folks are going to care) can identify a way to ship more goods using alternate routes (within a reasonable length of time) the plantation owner has to use the alternate routes.

It is up to the shipping company owners to be checking routes during the plantation owners phase to be able to force the more optimal shipping. If they don't they won't be able to identify optimal shipping in a reasonable time frame and we move to the next player.

Edit: Reasonable time is like one or two minutes after shipping is over. Otherwise I agree it would be far too tedious.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It would be good that Splotter clarifies this point.

Pyjam
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
facesnorth wrote:
I have found, especially with merged companies, that due to varying shipping routes and hull sizes, that the order in which you choose to sell each of the goods counters in a company and which shipping company you choose for each as well as which city you choose to send each to, can affect the quantity of your goods you are able to sell. Is it legal strategy to optimize your profits by planning which ones to sell so that it becomes impossible to sell other goods that you would have lost money on, that you may have been able to sell if you had sold them in a different order? Or is the mandate here that you must determine the order to sell your goods so that the MOST goods can possibly be sold, no matter what?


The rule seems clear, that you must sell as many as you can.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:


The rule seems clear, that you must sell as many as you can.


In this case I think we all agree that the rule is clear. The issue is reasonableness.

In the late game you don't want to have to go back and redo shipping because one of the other players didn't bother to check your shipping when you were determining routes and two minutes after you finished he points out an alternate route that permits you to ship (for example) one more good than the routes you figured out.

We play that it is fine -- and indeed appropriate for other players to point out more optimal runs when a player is running his company. But once the next player starts running his company there's no redos for the previous player(s) even if at that time another player can show a more optimal set of routes that would ship more goods.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
We will meet at the Hour of Scampering.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Based on my readings of designer comments before, the mandatory requirement to sell all goods possible is intentional. It's quite possible that you might have to sell a good (such as rice) at a loss, as your transport costs across a chain of ships could exceed the profit made off the product.

This was probably made intentional at some point during playtesting, when someone tinkered with "embargoes" against players heavily or exclusively invested in shipping companies. It's pretty clear the designers wanted such a transport-focused philosophy to be a viable strategy for winning.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tdewey wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:

The rule seems clear, that you must sell as many as you can.

In this case I think we all agree that the rule is clear.

Sorry but, in my opinion, in this case, the rules are much less clear than for the transport of the goods by lands. Because the case is not even discussed in the rules. Both comprehensions are evenly possible.

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pyjam wrote:
Both comprehensions are evenly possible.


The rule says, "Production companies have to sell as many of their goods as they can."

I can't figure out how you can comprehend that as, "Production companies may sell fewer of their goods than they could."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
We will meet at the Hour of Scampering.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pyjam wrote:
Thank you Kosh. When I'll have enough GG, my avatar will be Londo.

Pyjam.


Londo was one of my alternatives, if I found Kosh already taken by someone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Pyjam wrote:
Both comprehensions are evenly possible.

The rule says, "Production companies have to sell as many of their goods as they can."

I can't figure out how you can comprehend that as, "Production companies may sell fewer of their goods than they could."

This rule may be limited to simple cases where you can't block a shipping line to avoid excessive costs. It does not discuss tactical possibilities explicitly. Maybe because they're never discussed in rulebooks.

Pyjam
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pyjam wrote:
This rule may be limited to simple cases where you can't block a shipping line to avoid excessive costs.


It can't be limited in that way because there's no such limit in the rule. I quoted the entire rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Jamet
France
Paris
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Does your family come from France, Mr. DesJardins? I ask because your name means "from gardens" or "of the gardens" in French. Simple curiosity. My name means nothing in French. laugh

Pyjam.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pyjam wrote:
Does your family come from France, Mr. DesJardins? I ask because your name means "from gardens" or "of the gardens" in French. Simple curiosity. My name means nothing in French. laugh


My ancestors on my father's side are French Canadian. I don't personally have any French connections.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeroen Doumen
Netherlands
Eindhoven
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Click to see this player's page
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry for missing this post blush.

facesnorth wrote:
On page 8, the rules say that "If a company has sold all its goods, that is, as many goods as it currently has on the board, it must expand for free."

We assume this means you do not have a choice, you must expand.


Correct.

facesnorth wrote:
Then it says "The player expands 1 or more areas, depending on his R&D expansion track status."

Does this mean that if he has expansion level 3, he MUST expand 3 times? Or can he choose UP to 3?


He must expand 3 times (if possible). (Note that this only applies to produciton companies, not shipping)

facesnorth wrote:
Next, "These areas must be adjacent to one of the production zones of the company. A company can only expand into empty territory: a city or another company blocks the way. It is also not allowed to expand over sea areas, unless the two land areas are connected by an arrow."

We thought you could only expand your production company within the borders of the colored section where you founded your company. However, it appears from reading this, and then looking at picture at the bottom of page 8, that since the arrows point from different colored regions to one another, that you should be able to expand as far as you want across the map, so long as you do not bump into a city or a competing production company. Is this correct?


Yes, you can expand outside the original province.

facesnorth wrote:
A seperate though related question, from the rules on page 7, it reads "Goods can be freely moved from an area to a neighboring area within a production zone, so it is not necessary for an area to be next to a ship. It is not possible to move goods to a city over land, not even if the producing area is right next to a city."

[...]


See the separate topic on this (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/184006 )

facesnorth wrote:
Unrelated to this, also on paragraph 8, it reads "Production companies have to sell as many of their goods as they can, even if this means they have a negative income due to transport costs on one or more of their goods."

I have found, especially with merged companies, that due to varying shipping routes and hull sizes, that the order in which you choose to sell each of the goods counters in a company and which shipping company you choose for each as well as which city you choose to send each to, can affect the quantity of your goods you are able to sell. Is it legal strategy to optimize your profits by planning which ones to sell so that it becomes impossible to sell other goods that you would have lost money on, that you may have been able to sell if you had sold them in a different order? Or is the mandate here that you must determine the order to sell your goods so that the MOST goods can possibly be sold, no matter what?


You must sell the MOST goods. As people have already suggested here, I would also recommend an approach like 18xx - if noone points out a shipping method that sells more goods within a reasonable time, the move is legal.

facesnorth wrote:
Now also unrelated to both of these, where it says "Last Earnings Double" on the same page (8), it reads "Because all money in the final operations phase is doubled, players should keep their earned money seperate in the last era. If the game continues to another round, move it to the cash at the beginning of the next year."

I don't understand this suggestion. First of all, you would always know for sure when you are in the last round, because mergers & acquisitions take place before operations. So you can see how many unclaimed deeds are left on the board, and whether or not this will be the last phase of the era.


Not entirely - when a company can no longer be started (for instance by expansion of another company blocking the last potential starting spot), the unclaimed deed is removed. This may cause the game to end earlier then expected (though usually you can see whether this is possible).

facesnorth wrote:
Finally, in turn order bid, let me straighten this out: is it a once-around bid, so that everyone has one chance to bid. Or does it keep going around until everyone passes? We all believed it to be a once-around bid, but the rules aren't completely clear on this.


Yes, it's once-around.

Better late then never

Jeroen
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.