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Triumph & Tragedy» Forums » Variants

Subject: redesigning the 2 player game rss

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Geoff Conn
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So many people have pointed out how the 2 player game doesnt work, or is kludgy, or what have you.

And for some like myself, the main game is unpalateable due to its free wheeling 3 player dynamics (too much "lets you and him fight" constant whining, common to most 3 player games) and its tendancy to not follow historical lines.

The game has some amazing bones to it. I keep thinking that a really good team based more historical game is waiting to be discovered here. So why not spend more time fixing the 2 player game to give us that game? Don't kludge it, design it from the ground up to be that game.

Axis must knock out 2 of the 4 main capitols (London, Paris, Moscow, Washington) to win.
Allies must knock out Rome and Berlin to win. (And alternatively, only one ally can win, a sort of nod to Churchill and the post war game. If each ally takes one capitol, they tie?)

Now the idea is still to have Russia and the West as seperate players, but not neccesarily. The 'active' and non active nations are a kludge, and doesnt work. As the Axis currently starts with double cards, could the allies both take in half cards (rounded up) after turn 1 then, and otherwise operate normally as full players? Or is that not enough cards to defend themselves from a one sided push by the axis?

The Russians can play cards in winter, which gives them a prop up towards sustainability. Can both allies use emergency ops in a different format than currently? Perhaps allow one season card to be used in any season by each ally once per year? Maybe some combination of giving up a peace dividend for further uses?

However the allied player currently being able to pick an 'active' nation to get full cards is the likely response to an axis push, so as kludgy as it seems, it maybe better than the above. But if that still doesnt work, and won't allow for a more even team based game, what then? Is the problem the season cards themselves? It seemed odd to me that I could have the oil and whatnot to move my armies in fall, but not right now for instance....although I realize that neatly approximates some real world calamaties and limitations, surely there is a better way...more usable emergency ops rules as above perhaps....

There must be a way to do this.

 
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David E
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I still think you basically want a game that is not this one.

I agree that the two-player version isn't as good as with three players.
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Geoff Conn
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So no ideas then on how to improve it?
 
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David E
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Talonz wrote:
So no ideas then on how to improve it?


No, because I don't think it needs to be improved in the way you want.

There are lots of other two-player WWII games.
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Geoff Conn
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So no ideas then. Thanks David, back the way you came then.
 
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David E
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Condescension noted. What sort of response are you expecting here? You're asking for ideas on how to do something that only you think needs to be done. No one else wants to "fix" something that isn't broken. Post your own ideas and maybe people will comment on how workable they are.
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Alberto Natta
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Meanwhile I agree the 2 player game has issues, to revolution this game equals to crave for a different game.

What was written above - to write down a set of rules you suggest, and post them in the Variant forum may be an idea?

I'll throw a stone your way though. One plays Axis, another West, and the Soviets start like a bot with some principles of action and otherwise share their play of cards between the other two players for the first turns.
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David E
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A bot for the Soviets would be kind of interesting.
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Jose Smith
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I have enjoyed this game three player and I am not sure how to make two player work to replicate the experience.

Now if you play the Russian player as common it might work. The Russians just don't expand military and gets just cards for diplomacy. When it comes to the Russian turn to play a card the axis and allies each take turns playing one. It would show that the russians are staying out of the war but still playing behind the scenes.
 
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Alberto Natta
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By Bot I mean they have some priorities for cards; some possible historical objectives; and cards can be otherwise played in share.

The Soviet cards would be face up first of all.
And they are to build military as they can be invaded too.

Some political cards must be played prioritized in a way (ie: Finland, Rumania, Turkey, etc - let's say all the nations adjacent Russia). Also all USA cards must be played vs USA (USA interferences in Europe would damage comunism!).
Otherwise the remaining options the Axis and West players play them one by one.
Cards like Sabotage, etc, are worth like 2 or 3 card plays.

The moment Paris or London falls in Axis hands, the Soviet will remain shared one more turn and then fall entirely in West control.


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Tamas Nagy
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What about set the Russians starting IND to 5 and increase it by 5 on Axis DOW or Paris/London fall or automatically in 1940
 
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My approach is to allow the two players to switch between the three rivals. See https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/139679/alternative-two-pl...

The idea is that two players are competing against each other. The three rival powers are merely tools that the players use to battle each other.

There are a couple of issues that I want to address, but I'd like more play testing before I make any changes.

See what you think.
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Tamas Nagy
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I read them, and found them very elegant, but i like to play with the same faction too the end, maybe its not that balanced but feel more epic.
Also like Alberto idea about shared or even random diplomacy. What if russia had to spend half of her income for diplomacy cards until in war/specific date.
Those cards should be played after the axis/west normal diplomacy turn, either by played randomly or divided between axis and west to play for the ussr. The rest of the income would be spent by the west freely.
Its represent the independence diplomacy of the ussr and still feel like a normal player, and give chance(time) to the axis.
Thoughts?
 
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I understand.

Another approach that might work for two players is to apply the concept used in SPI's The Battle for Germany. In that game, Germany is split in half: The Western Allies control the East German army, the Soviet player controls the West German army.

In T&T, the split could include production, cards, and diplomacy as well as military units. One exception: The year of a German DOW would allow the East or West German to spend ALL the production and take permanent control of HALF the German CVs controlled by the other player.

What do you think?
 
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Mike Szarka
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DieterS wrote:
I understand.

Another approach that might work for two players is to apply the concept used in SPI's The Battle for Germany. In that game, Germany is split in half: The Western Allies control the East German army, the Soviet player controls the West German army.

In T&T, the split could include production, cards, and diplomacy as well as military units. One exception: The year of a German DOW would allow the East or West German to spend ALL the production and take permanent control of HALF the German CVs controlled by the other player.

What do you think?


Fun idea, but it would be a bear to get the balance right. Maybe with a 1943 start?
 
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Yeah, but it's more the timing and "gamesmanship" of splitting the Axis that I'm concerned about.

To start, I'd split the IPR values evenly between East and West (I=6, P=6, R=3, 7 Action cards)--adding and subtracting from those initial values later. However, splitting the Axis reduces the possibility for the Axis to concentrate its full strength on anything significant.

The East Axis (controlled by the West) would include Berlin and all areas to the the east of a vertical map line through Berlin.

In my opinion, zombie/robot rules tend to be complex, and the actions of a rule-driven rival are too predictable, lacking any strategic surprise.

It would be interesting to try this idea once, just to see what happens.

 
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Tamas Nagy
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Well if half Germany can deal with West/Ussr while we even need to split? My main reason to a half robotic Ussr to let the Axis play out big attacks without lost on the other front at that moment. This biggest fun in eto games the invade of france and ussr, half axis has no chance to do any of those.
 
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Liam
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Moved from Rules to Variants.
 
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Ok, I started working on an East-West version of the two-player rules. I will update these here for a while and after some play testing, I'll post the amended results as a PDF.

Here's what I have so far:

1. The two players are the West plus the East Germans (Berlin), and the Soviets plus the West Germans (The Ruhr and Munich). The Italians are controlled by the Soviets until the Soviet player attacks an Italian unit or enters an Italian home area, in which case they become controlled by the West.

2. The initial cards are split between the West and the Soviets--seven each. Action and Investment cards for East Germany and West Germany are kept separate, which means there are four stacks of cards. To identify each stack, place a control token on each one.

3. Production for Germany is always split in half between East Germany and West Germany. If the total production is an odd number, 1 Production Point must be spent on Italy; if the total production is even, 2 Production Points must be spent on Italy.

4. The Turn Order separates East and West Germany. For a clockwise turn order, East Germany goes first; for a counter-clockwise turn order, West Germany does first. Italy's turn is combined with West Germany unless control of Italy switches to the West. For example, the turn order might be Soviet > East Germany > West Germany > West, or might be West Germany > East Germany > Soviet > West.

5. If Germany's Industry ever limits its production, both players have to contribute enough Investment points each turn to raise Germany's Industry by at least 1. If Germany requires 5 Investment points to raise its Industry by 1, the first player that turn must spend at least 3 and the second must spend at least 2. If Germany requires 4 Investment points to raise its Industry by one, each player must spend at least 2 Investment points. And if Germany requires 3 Investment points, the first player must spend at least 2 and the second player must spend at least 1. If either player doesn't have enough Investment points to fulfill this requirement, they will need to spend an Investment from the West or Soviet hand or liquidate a technology at its printed value.

6. During a Production Phase, East Germany can announce its intention to declare war on the Soviet Union that year, and all of Germany's Production Points go to the East Germans that year. Likewise, if West Germany announces its intention to declare war on the Soviet Union that year, all of Germany's Production Points go to the West Germans that year. Once an announcement is made, the East or West Germans must follow through in one of the subsequent seasons that year. Germany cannot declare war on both the West and the Soviet Union in the same year, so priority for this announcement is determined by the Turn Order.

7. If one of the Germanys plays a technology card, the other Germany must match the technology, if possible. If the other Germany cannot match the technology, then any Investment card of the same or greater value will fulfill the requirement. If this is not possible, the Technology card cannot be played and must be withdrawn. Technologies are applicable to both East and West Germany. There are no hidden German technologies.

8. Generally, East Germany receives Action cards for Soviet violations of neutrality, and West Germany receives Action cards for West violations of Neutrality.

9. Beginning in 1936, the Axis receives 3 Resource points each year from the Soviet Union. In Fall 1939, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact comes into force. While in force, the Soviets do not receive Action cards for Axis violations of neutrality. The Axis does not receive Action cards for Soviet violations of neutrality. The Soviet Union may not play action cards to make Finland, the Baltic States, Poland, Romania, Turkey, and Persia Associates, Protectorates, or Satellites until the 1940 Turn. When a state of war exists between the East Germans and the Soviets, both of these effects are cancelled.

If the Soviets make Denmark, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, or Croatia into Protectorates or Satellites, Hitler tries to make Peace with the West. Beginning on the following season after one of these states becomes a Soviet protectorate or satellite, and every season thereafter, Peace with the West is initiated with a roll of two dice totaling 2. Every additional state that’s affected subtracts 1 from the dice roll. A successful Peace with the West dice roll results in a permanent state of Peace between the Axis and the West. In exchange, the Axis must relinquish all conquests west and north of Germany and Italy, moving all Axis units out of them. Any British and French colonies lost to the Axis are also restored, and the Axis must move all units out of them as well. Withdrawals do not require Action card expenditures. From then on, all of Germany and Italy is controlled by the West.

10. All other three-player rules are in force.

I'm play testing these rules now. See what you think.

Dieter
 
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The rules for a two-player version splitting Germany into East and West is posted here:

-> Two-Player T&T Rules: East/West Germany

Seems to work pretty well, but see the notes.

Dieter
 
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