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Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: False Orders and Adaptive Weapons rss

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Anna T
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In our group, we have an Imperial player with Technological Superiority playing against Murne Rin. If the Empire has Adaptive Weapons, how does this apply False Orders? We've discussed three possible options:

- Rebels cannot use Adaptive Weapons at all and must roll the target's original dice.
- Rebels can use Adaptive Weapons as if they were the Empire to their best advantage.
- Imperial player can use Adaptive Weapons to their best advantage to actually make the attack less effective.

Any thoughts from the rule savvy players out there?

Thanks!
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Craig S.
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The rebel player may use all abilities on the deployment card but may not use utilize Imperial class deck or agenda cards.
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Craig S.
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csouth154 wrote:
The rebel player may use all abilities on the deployment card but may not use utilize Imperial class deck or agenda cards.


Also remember than all non-neutral figures on the board are hostile and no figures are friendly during these attacks. So abilities like squad training may not be used, and an officer could not cower from such an attack if the only Imperial figure adjacent to it is the one performing the attack.
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Anna T
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csouth154 wrote:
The rebel player may use all abilities on the deployment card but may not use utilize Imperial class deck or agenda cards.


Interesting! I couldn't find this clarification anywhere in the rules. Where did you find this?
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Pasi Ojala
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teytanna wrote:
Interesting! I couldn't find this clarification anywhere in the rules. Where did you find this?

There is a section in the RRG:
RRG, Attacks, Special Situations wrote:
· Some abilities allow players to perform an attack with a hostile
figure. To resolve such an attack, the player resolving the
ability controls the hostile figure for the duration of that attack.
-- The player resolving the ability chooses the target of the
attack. All figures are considered hostile when choosing a
target for this attack. The figure cannot target itself.
-- The player resolving the ability rolls the attack dice and can
use any of the figure's abilities as if the figure were his own.

To control the hostile figure means that the hostile figure is performing the attack and can thus use abilities that it has.

Being hostile and not being friendly precludes most abilities. Also, any non-attachment class cards (edit: with costs) are off limits, but attachments can be used.

Also, Besbin Gambit reiterates it.
Besbin Gambit wrote:
· Some abilities allow players to perform an attack with
a hostile figure. To resolve such an attack, the player
resolving the ability controls the hostile figure for the
duration of that attack.
-- The player resolving the ability chooses the target
of the attack. All non-neutral figures are considered
hostile and no figures are considered friendly while
performing this attack. The figure cannot target
itself.
-- During a campaign, while a Rebel player is
attacking with an Imperial figure or the Imperial
player is attacking with a Rebel figure, that figure
is considered to be both Rebel and Imperial by
mission rules.


Also see
Does Murne Rin's False order make the figure 'friendly' and 'hostile' to Imperials?
Murne False Orders - With attachments
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Anna T
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According to the rules of Adaptive Weapons:

Quote:
While an Imperial figure is attacking, you may replace 1 die in its attack pool with another attack die of your choice.


If I understand the Bespin rules correctly, the target is still and Imperial (and Rebel) figure. So Adaptive Weapons should in fact be in play. The next question is then - who is "you" in this case.
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Anna T
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I guess the rules say "you" applies to the figure, so this would imply the rebel players can replace a die if they want.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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One thing to note: The rules in Bespin Gambit are different to the ones in the RRG in an important aspect. In the RRG, all figures were hostile while declaring the attack. In BG, this was revised to all non-neutral figures being hostile while the attack is performed. This removes a lot of the ambiguity of the original rule.


Now onto the question at hand...

"You" can refer to the figure or the player. In the case of Adaptive Weapons, it has to be referring to the player as the card is NOT an attachment. If it were an attachment, it would be a property of the figure, but as a card on its own, it must be referring to the player.

So Adaptive Weapons means the Imperial Player chooses which die to replace, even when Murne is making the attack via False Orders.

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Jay McDonald
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What about attachments to a group like Arc Blasters? If a unit in that group is controlled can use the attachment?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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dirk69er wrote:
What about attachments to a group like Arc Blasters? If a unit in that group is controlled can use the attachment?

Yes, attachment cards are different. They add an ability to the figure, and the player making the attack can use any abilities of the figure throughout the attack. "You" on attachments will almost always be referring to the figure rather than the player.

Regarding Arc Blasters two abilities, the first isn't optional, so it happens regardless of who is considered to control the figure. The second ability that adds a 'Surge: +1 Damage,Blast +1 Damage' ability applies to the figure, so it can be used via False Orders.
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Paul Flesher
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Clipper wrote:
dirk69er wrote:
What about attachments to a group like Arc Blasters? If a unit in that group is controlled can use the attachment?

Yes, attachment cards are different. They add an ability to the figure, and the player making the attack can use any abilities of the figure throughout the attack. "You" on attachments will almost always be referring to the figure rather than the player.

Regarding Arc Blasters two abilities, the first isn't optional, so it happens regardless of who is considered to control the figure. The second ability that adds a 'Surge: +1 Damage,Blast +1 Damage' ability applies to the figure, so it can be used via False Orders.


Ok, what about Superior Augments? It clearly states that the figure applies +1 damage when using an attachment. It may as well add "+1 damage" to each attachment card, which would by all rights mean that Murne could trigger that particular class card with False Orders.

Thoughts?
 
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Pasi Ojala
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(I thought) Superior Augments belongs to the imperial player (instead of the attacking figure), and is thus not available during False Orders attack.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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wonderchicken wrote:
Ok, what about Superior Augments? It clearly states that the figure applies +1 damage when using an attachment. It may as well add "+1 damage" to each attachment card, which would by all rights mean that Murne could trigger that particular class card with False Orders.

Thoughts?

The Superior Augments Imperial Class card isn't triggered. It automatically adds the ability to such figures and is always 'on'. So yes, it would apply.

Edit: Oh, it's fun when Pasi and I disagree! I'm sticking to my guns here, though.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Clipper wrote:
The Superior Augments Imperial Class card isn't triggered. It automatically adds the ability to such figures and is always 'on'.

Then Shock Troopers, Sharpshooters, Find the Weakness would also apply. They do not require any cost either, but they belong to the imperial player.

(But I think the imperial player could use Adaptive Weapons to change the die to something with less damage.)
 
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Jacob
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a1bert wrote:
Clipper wrote:
The Superior Augments Imperial Class card isn't triggered. It automatically adds the ability to such figures and is always 'on'.

Then Shock Troopers, Sharpshooters, Find the Weakness would also apply. They do not require any cost either, but they belong to the imperial player.

(But I think the imperial player could use Adaptive Weapons to change the die to something with less damage.)


Why wouldn't that be the case, that the "Passive" effects still apply? The figure is considered to be both Rebel and Imperial for mission rules, why not for passive class abilities?
 
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Josh Renfro
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If Superior Augments applied, would the following also apply? If the figure is still Imperial and has access to class cards, then it should be able to:

- Exhaust Explosive Munitions to swap in a red die.
- Exhaust Show of Force to add Focus.

Those are just the one off the top of my head that state, "When an Imperial figure is attacking..."

It seems pretty broken to be able to Exhuast/completely nullify Imperial starting abilities.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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The non-attachment class cards are controlled by the imperial player. The figure performing the attack does not control them, thus cannot exhaust them. That we are sure of.

Clipper is arguing that abilities from non-attachment class cards that do not have costs are still applied.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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jakers98 wrote:
The figure is considered to be both Rebel and Imperial for mission rules, why not for passive class abilities?

That is red herring, so should not be indication for one way or another. The figure is still only Imperial for other rules and abilities.

RRG, page 6 wrote:
· Some abilities allow players to perform an attack with a hostile figure. To resolve such an attack, the player resolving the ability controls the hostile figure for the duration of that attack.
-- The player resolving the ability chooses the target of the attack. All figures are considered hostile when choosing a target for this attack. The figure cannot target itself.
-- The player resolving the ability rolls the attack dice and can use any of the figure's abilities as if the figure were his own.

Emphasis mine.

The rule talks about the figure's abilities (which includes attachments), but whether non-attachment class cards apply is under the debate. Also, as if the figure were his own could be interpreted that the imperial class cards would not affect the figure.

(But I think my interpretation might have less merit. Better keep Murne far away in the campaign.)
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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a1bert wrote:
Clipper wrote:
The Superior Augments Imperial Class card isn't triggered. It automatically adds the ability to such figures and is always 'on'.

Then Shock Troopers, Sharpshooters, Find the Weakness would also apply. They do not require any cost either, but they belong to the imperial player.

(But I think the imperial player could use Adaptive Weapons to change the die to something with less damage.)

I agree, and I already argued that Adaptive Weapons would work that way above.
 
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Paul Flesher
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I agree with not exhausting cards, but I'm glad someone else reads it the way I do.
 
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Jacob
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a1bert wrote:
The figure is still only Imperial for other rules and abilities.


Where do you see that?
 
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Pasi Ojala
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jakers98 wrote:
a1bert wrote:
The figure is still only Imperial for other rules and abilities.

Where do you see that?

I see that the figure is considered Rebel for the purposes of mission rules. The figure is not becoming Rebel for other abilities. For example Gideon can't use Called Shot to provide a surge. (Edit: actually, Called Shot doesn't refer the Rebel, just friendly, and the figure under control is not friendly to any non-neutral figures.)
Bespin Gambit wrote:
-- During a campaign, while a Rebel player is attacking with an Imperial figure or the Imperial player is attacking with a Rebel figure, that figure is considered to be both Rebel and Imperial by mission rules.

This allows False Orders to be used to attack terminals or other objects such as doors that can only be attacked by rebel figures by mission rules.

I think I'll have to side with Clipper on the static Imperial figure abilities. They do only come to effect once per round after all, so should not be that bad to get Pierce 1 or +1dmg.
 
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Jacob
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Now that I think of it, if Adaptive Weapons applies, then how can something like Sharpshooters not apply?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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One other thing to note is that it isn't the cost, or exhausting of the card (which is a cost), that separates things here. It's the fact the abilities aren't optional. Abilities with costs are always optional, which explains why the Rebel player cannot choose to exhaust them (the choice is still up to the Imperial player).

If the Imperial Class ability were that an Imperial figure 'may' have some effect, then the choice of whether the ability applies or not is up to the Imperial Player.
 
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Rachi C
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without the words "by mission rules.", Would Gideon be able to use Called shot?
 
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