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Subject: Would you buy a new base set? rss

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Adelin Dumitru
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Since Upper Deck has the habit of releasing expansions that take advantage of the MCU hype (Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War, the upcoming Deadpool small box expansion; N.B.: however, the content of the expansions follows the comics, not the movies), I'd say it is pretty safe to assume that 2017 will be the year of returning to the cosmic characters of Marvel.

In 2017, 2 movies will be released that have to do with cosmic characters: Thor: Ragnarok and Guardians of the Galaxy 2. The 2019 (?) Captain Marvel movie is also a clear sign that the MCU will focus on cosmic entities, which would also be a good opportunity for Upper Deck to delve into the long comics history of exploring the space.

One element that has been repeatedly asked by the fans is an update of the player board, in two ways: first of all, ditch the whole board thing and release a mat (like the one that comes in Legendary: Villains) and, secondly, integrate the new stacks that have been recently introduced (mainly the Sidekick stack, but arguably also the Villains-related stacks such as New Recruits, Bindings etc).

Another thing on the fans' wishlist seems to be the release of new starting hands. For those of us who do not sleeve (please do not judge us), the SHIELD/ Hydra fodder show the signs of dozens of battles.

How to integrate all these diverse items? As far as I could tell, the best solution would be to release a third base set, which would slightly alter the city spaces , in order to convey the feeling that the battles are now taking place in space. However, the old terminology would also have to be included, either on the board or in the rulebook. The base set would also contain new starting hands (Nova troops?), would come with Special Sidekicks, with new types of Wounds (continuing the trend started with Civil War), new Nova Officers, replacing the old Maria Hill stack, and with new Special Bystanders. I won't delve into the specific characters, as I have already made a while ago a thread in which I presented my wishlist (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22683092#22683092) for what I then thought it should be a big box expansion.

Some of the disadvantages would be that you might get "functional duplicates" (the cards play the same role, although they feature different characters) and that it would be more expensive than a big box expansion. Among the advantages I will only mention two (for symmetry): it would gather several of fans' wishlist items in one place and it would provide a more thematic feeling to the game (e.g., I find it more accurate to say that the Nova resort to the Guardians of the Galaxy than what's going on now, where SHIELD Agents recruit Star Lord and the company).

What do you say, Legendary fans? Would you buy a third base set? Do you find it redundant?

What do you say, Upper Deck representatives? Do you have such a (hopefully) pleasant surprise for us in store?

As always, I'm looking forward to your thoughts!

Edit: The set would come with brand new content in terms of Villains, Masterminds, Henchmen, Heroes and schemes.
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Gamer D

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Nope, I like the game but I wouldn't buy a second copy, my first copy is fine. But those are all good suggestions for a second edition if they do one.
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Adam Steele
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I'd buy it, but I would honestly rather buy an updated base game.
* Alternate art for all cards, obviously different than the already available alternate art. Making all card art different allows the original to retain some value, not that it would ever be printed again. The existence of Dr. Doom might make it tricky, though...
* More difficult versions of the masterminds.
* Mastermind tactics with art that actually reflects the tactic (not necessary, but would be nice).
* New art for the basic starter cards, so as not to totally destroy the value of the base set

Sidekicks would be great, but are unnecessary. They're a selling point for Secret Wars. Even special bystanders are unnecessary.
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Adelin Dumitru
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I edited the post above because I was not entirely sure if it was clear that it would not be a reprint of the base set, but a brand new base set (just like the Villains base set).
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Adam Steele
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I was aware. I just said I'd rather have X than Y.
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David M. Cabal Inés
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It depends... I would buy a base with different heroes from the first base or one with rules to play more players with different starting rules to compensate.

I hardly spend as much in a different version of the all one.
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Michael Green
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I'd probably buy it, 'cos...more Legendary, but would rather buy it as a big-box expansion than a re-vamped base set.

One of the things holding me back from getting villains is that between all the starter cards, wounds, and cards that work off of other players there's a lot of content that I wouldn't use that much, for quite a high price.
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Mark Cresswell
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I'd buy it. No brainer.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Organous wrote:
I was aware. I just said I'd rather have X than Y.


I know, it was Dugman's reply that made me wonder whether I was clear enough in the OP.
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Jonathan Bailey
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I might or might not buy it, depending on the heroes included more than anything - I do sleeve my cards, so my starting hand cards are fine. I would be down with an upgraded mat, however. Probably would land in the "wait for a good deal" category.

In the interest of brainstorming, I have to say that the new starting hands would have to be something other than Nova Corps, seeing as the game is based on comic book properties and not MCU properties, and there is no Nova Corps in the comics. Unless something has changed in the wake of Secret Wars that I'm unaware of, which is entirely possible, but I'm guessing not since Sam Alexander still seems to still be the only Nova. I don't know what else would be a good candidate for the cosmic "rank and file", though. Kree soldiers, maybe, although they're gone now, too....
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Sherri Fillingham
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I would definitely buy it. Heck, I'm getting ready to resleeve my entire collection (never buying cheap sleeves again), which is likely to run well over $100, so dropping money for a second edition is a no brainer for me.

I would like to add that they should include more divider cards. I will need more of those when Civil War comes out.

Good question and some wonderful suggestions.
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Markococo
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I'd buy an expansion to revamp the base set if it had the following:

* New artwork for the base set heroes (in theory you only need 9 cards for each hero as you can use 5 of the original cards for one set of 5 commons) (135 cards)

* New S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents and Troopers (for the non-sleevers) (60 cards)

* New play mat with all necessary spaces (like the Villains one, but maybe slightly bigger)

* Overlays for the mat to change the HQ and the City based on theme (a generic HQ that's not the Helicarrier - NYC skyline maybe - and something to replace the city for like cosmic themed schemes...I hate it when I'm playing as Guardians of the Galaxy and they are in the sewers and the bank lol)

OR

I would buy a new set that had the same content ratio as the original but with different characters.

So, new players would have a stand alone game and existing players would get MORE Heroes, Masterminds, Villains, Schemes and Henchmen as well as alternate art for the SHIELD agents, troopers, officers wounds and bystanders.

New Masterminds, new Heroes (there's still plenty to pick from), new villains that haven't been seen yet (eg Wrecking Crew, Hellfire Club, Serpent Squad etc) and different classic henchmen (AIM, Spider Slayers (ahem) etc

or...they could even pick the same villain groups but with different villains (eg Masters of Evil with Mr. Hyde, Scorpion,Beetle, Tiger Shark, Absorbing Man, whoever)

OK, you can release all these things as expansions, but releasing them as a new set could get new players in as well as satisfying the much-vaunted need for new base artwork, new play mat, better storage box, more henchmen etc

PLUS (lol) I've never been keen on the idea of the starter hands being made up of SHIELD troopers and agents. I always thought it would have been better to have Power (///) and Responsibility (*) as the starting cards.




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Adam Steele
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Mickey Stirrups wrote:
* Overlays for the mat to change the HQ and the City based on theme (a generic HQ that's not the Helicarrier...


I'd be all up for this if not for the fact that there is a scheme to destroy the helicarrier. Then again, there's also a scheme for invading the Daily Bugle that uses the HQ that way.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Organous wrote:
Mickey Stirrups wrote:
* Overlays for the mat to change the HQ and the City based on theme (a generic HQ that's not the Helicarrier...


I'd be all up for this if not for the fact that there is a scheme to destroy the helicarrier. Then again, there's also a scheme for invading the Daily Bugle that uses the HQ that way.


I'm so used to playing on the Villains mat that I would not have understood what was wrong with Destroying the Helicarrier had you not also mentioned the Daily Bugle scheme
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Tommy Brownell
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I would really only want a second edition if it was converting it to Legendary Encounters. Otherwise, I would want a *very* compelling reason for a third base set (as I did just spend over $100 sleeving my game, so I have no need for more base cards).
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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No no no no no no no no no no HELL NO!

I think my opinion on this matter is crystal clear.


I hate villains with a passion for being a base set. That is why I decided to skip it (someone bought for me as a present eventually).



I have no desire to pay full price for junk that I don't need when I could be getting just the stuff I need in a big box expansion. Dark City good, Villains bad.


Why do I need to pay for more starting hands that I have 0 use for? Why would I pay more money when just a pack of sleeves is so cheap?!?

Why do I need a new board when to be honest the current board isn't really needed at all. And why do people want to have "spots" for stuff like madame hydra or shield officers? Most of the time I don't even bother taking them out of the box.

In other words, the stuff isn't needed and if they do give it away, it won't be free. It will cost you more.

I have a huge pile actually labeled "villains crap" for all the stuff that I never even need to touch like starting hands, twists, strikes etc.

And let's not forget that if they make a base set, we'll need more wounds and regular bystanders too...


One of the things that made me despise Thunderstone so much is how they kept taking out "base sets" instead of just regular expansions so if I had bothered going heavily into it, I would have been left with what? 1000 torches and long spears I have 0 use for and waste a whole lot of money.



So TLDR: NO. Not only wouldn't I buy it, but if they ever pull another one like Villains I might be turned off this game entirely. The only time when it's acceptable to take out another base set is when it's been a few years and you basically want to take out a new edition to the game.
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Adelin Dumitru
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I'm sorry, but Legendary Villains is not a new edition of the base set. It's a totally different game. It feels like a different game, and it actually plays differently. The only "duplicates" you get are the starting hands and strikes/twists.

Madame Hydra is very different from Maria Hill.
Bindings are an improvement over Wounds.
There are new special Bystanders included, and, even if they were not included, it's nice to have some artwork variation in the bystander stack.
New Recruits are a brilliant addition.

This means that less than 100 cards are "duplicates".
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Adelin Dumitru
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Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you commit an error in hating Villains or the idea of another base set. I'm just pointing out the fact that Legendary: Villains is a full-fledged, self-standing game, very different from the heroic version.
 
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Sandman
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If the new base set had new card art I most certainly would buy it. That's really what it comes down to. Release the original again with new art and I'll plunk down the money for it.
 
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Bryce C
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Yes, especially if they bring all the keywords they have created over time and brought them back to the base set heroes. Yes I am talking about Thrown Artifact Cap and Thor.
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David A
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stealthy104 wrote:
Yes, especially if they bring all the keywords they have created over time and brought them back to the base set heroes. Yes I am talking about Thrown Artifact Cap and Thor.

You forgot Wall-Crawl for all the various Spideys.

Also, I wouldn't be interested in a new base set unless there was something phenomenally and majorly different about it. New art isn't a big deal to me and I sleeve so I have no need for new "basics" -- though I can see an argument for a "supplemental" expansion for cards like that for people who need them.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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AdelinDumitru wrote:
I'm sorry, but Legendary Villains is not a new edition of the base set. It's a totally different game.

Sorry, but that's factually false. It's the exact same game.

They are compatible. You can switch them back and forth with ease. You can take a setup for Heroes and stick a villain in it without a problem and vice versa. The fact that you might need to add something else (like New Recruit) is no different than... let's say adding Guardians of the Galaxy into the mix and adding the shards or playing Secret Wars and adding Sidekicks.

The fact that they've dumped the terminology and just straight out give you villains like Thaons as playable heroes goes to show you that.

Encounters is different, but villains and heroes are the same game.
This is a fact, not an opinion. The games are interchangeable.

AdelinDumitru wrote:

It feels like a different game, and it actually plays differently. The only "duplicates" you get are the starting hands and strikes/twists.

Okay, I can't (nor do I want to) tell you how to "feel" about things, so I won't go into that. But it does not play differently and saying that is a joke. You play the villains set you barely even scheme through the manual. It's the exact same game.

As for duplicates, you have 11 twists, 5 master strikes, 60 starting hands and all the regular bystanders (that's about 30? I think) either way we're almost at 100 cards here.

Not to mention the playmat.

AdelinDumitru wrote:

Madame Hydra is very different from Maria Hill.
Bindings are an improvement over Wounds.
New Recruits are a brilliant addition.

I'll leave the words "improvement" out of it since that's rather subjective. I think Madame Hydra is horrible due to poor design of Dodge, but that's not the issue here.

Either way, sure, they added some stuff, what's your point? How is adding New Recruits to villains relevant? They added Sidekicks in Secret Wars. Heck, they're adding them in Civil War too. So what? Those are regular big box expansions, they aren't stand alone games.

The mastermind cards? That's an addition in Secret Wars too. So? Shards were added Guardians - SO?!?
Expansions add stuff to the game. The question here is whether taking out villains as a stand alone game was a good idea - and that's referring to all the duplicate pointless things like starting hands and such.

If villains came out just like Secret Wars did without the duplicate stuff but added some improvements, it would have been a lot better.

AdelinDumitru wrote:

There are new special Bystanders included, and, even if they were not included, it's nice to have some artwork variation in the bystander stack.

There are also special bystanders in Dark City and Secret Wars. Don't remember if Civil Wars have any. Again, you're missing the point.

As for variation of artwork -
HELL NO!
I will not pay more money to get an expansion just for silly artwork. If they want to do like what they did with the 3d cards, by offering something outside of expansions where you can buy alternate art?

Fine by me. I just won't buy it. Heck, if they want to sell packs of starting cards like they did with the dividers? Fine. I have no problem if I'm not being forced to buy it as part of something else I'm perfectly fine with it. Just like with the various alternate art promos.

But saying I should pay more money on an expansion just because it has cards I have no use for with another look? YUCK.

AdelinDumitru wrote:

This means that less than 100 cards are "duplicates".

Actually my math shows more than 100 cards. So better check again.

Either way, the point is simple: Upper deck aren't a charity and they don't do things for free. If they need to pay more money on more cards or a playmat they are going to turn costs on the consumer. Villains costs (just checked current prices on CSI) about $15 more than Dark City or Secret Wars.

Hey, wait a second, what else costs about $15? Oh! The small box expansions for this game. You know, the ones that have 100 cards in them?

Now do you realize what a rip off that is?
 
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Stephen Mills
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Hey calm down there
I think you've got the wrong thread, the title is "Would you buy a new base set" and has nothing to do with Villains
This thread is about how people would feel if UD reprinted a new base set with upgrades and everybody's thoughts on this so far have been quite civil and the discussion was going along quite well.
I feel this is a valid question and good on Adelin Dumitru for asking it.
If you hate Villains with all its clutter so much, box it up and sell it on ebay.
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Erik Hatinen
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My short answer is that I'd buy Cosmic Marvel Legendary eventually, but it would not be a priority for me. That said, the idea sounds like it has good potential.

A new mat would be nice, but between the higher price of base set-like stuff and my extreme poverty, I'd be more interested in another big expansion. While not having a spot just for component X is mildly inconvenient, I would hardly be excited to have a board with a spot for Sidekicks or whatever new card type comes out in the next big set.

One of the regulars had a different idea for how boards can deal with the bonus cards--having a spot or two for a random bonus thing, that could be the spot for New Recruits if your game features them, Shards, the Baby Hope Token and so on. This strikes me as more sensible than spots for Sidekicks, since they might eventually be a footnote, and Ambition cards, which probably won't be revisited anytime soon, etc.

"Another thing on the fans' wishlist seems to be the release of new starting hands. For those of us who do not sleeve (please do not judge us), the SHIELD/ Hydra fodder show the signs of dozens of battles."

Yet another poster mentioned that some games or game companies sell little packs of cards or other components that wear out rapidly. I do use powerful sleeves (but play the game so much they still break--four games a day is normal for me!) so I don't feel a need for such components, but the idea sounds fantastic for anyone who can't or doesn't want to buy sleeves.

"How to integrate all these diverse items? As far as I could tell, the best solution would be to release a third base set, which would slightly alter the city spaces, in order to convey the feeling that the battles are now taking place in space..."

I agree that next year could well be the year of cosmic Marvel. I've heard nothing about it, but I get so little time on the web that it could well be the second most reported online story of this year and still not know. That would be great. From what I've read here, the Cosmic-themed comics sell well and it would be cool to have this game reflect that focus and its stories. It's a very good idea to capitalize on those trends, and to me, your best argument for this is that it's more thematic for Gamora to be recruited by cards like Xandarian Prime Minister (by which I mean "Glen Close's character in the Guardians movie") than Maria Hill. I do play games where Skadi and Captain America work together to stop Nick Fury's Skrull Invasion, but it feels silly.

That said, I suspect that a set with bunches of the terms, rules and extra cards over the game's life could turn off potential players. We are the folks who are cuckoo bananas over this game (why else would so many of us have made our own cards, and so many of us gravitate towards threads about them?) and would mostly be pleased to see so many things come back, but less experienced players could be overwhelmed easily. I think the extra bonus space or spaces for the accessories of the month is a better idea.

I wouldn't dislike this set's existence, but I would not be excited about it.

PS: My local game shop has mats for the DC game. For those of us who want an updated mat, do you like the idea of getting Legendary Marvel Cosmic more, or does paying less for a good mat seem like a better idea?
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Adelin Dumitru
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Those are some great points, Erik, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I admit I have not thought one moment about how inconvenient it would be for new players to have to choose from 3 different sets.

Regarding your PS, I'd also prefer option 3, especially due to the compelling arguments you have put forward in the text preceding the post scriptum. But i am afraid that those mats would not be available to those outside the US, which would be really sad
 
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