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Subject: the 2nd amendment and the lessons of the coup in Turkey rss

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jeremy cobert
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So one of the things I often hear from gun grabbers is that the 2nd amendment is not going to protect you against the US military's modern firepower.

We see the coup in Turkey take place with modern tanks and weapons. And yet the people fought back and stopped it.

So does this now put an end to the gun grabbers argument that

1. this cant happen in modern society
and
2. people can fight back against a modern military.

Quote:
Speaking to an anchor on CNN Turk, who holds up her phone so viewers can see, Erdogan urges people to take to the streets to stand up to the military faction behind the uprising.
"Go to the streets and give them their answer," he says.
He says lower-ranking officers launched the coup, rebelling against senior officers.
"Those who are responsible, we will give them the necessary punishment," he adds.




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J
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If it was only a small part of the military that launched the coup attempt, what did the rest of the military do?
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Carl Parsons
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I don't see any guns being carried by the civilians in those pictures. It's almost as if you're providing evidence that guns aren't needed at all to oppose a tyrannical government.
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Josh
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Looks like Turkry did it without guns. The coup was also small and didn't want to harm civilians. Bad example.

Who are the gun grabbers btw? Are they the people who run to walmart to buy another 3 rifles every time Obama makes a speech?
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Boaty McBoatface
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batman wrote:
I don't see any guns being carried by the civilians in those pictures. It's almost as if you're providing evidence that guns aren't needed at all to oppose a tyrannical government.
I cannot recall there being any major gun battles, just people using themselves as Human shields and solders not being willing to kill them.

Also, were these MUSLIMS!! defending democracy or theocracy, and was the coup pro or anti democracy. I really wish the OPer could get his narrative sorted out.
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Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
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The young conscripts seem, as a whole, to have been reluctant to shoot at the unarmed crowd. While many in the army were not involved in the coup, the armed police supported the president.

I don't see how having an armed crowd would have made the situation any better or, indeed, how the situation has any relevance to the idea of an armed populace. In fact, it shows that you don't need an armed populace to stop a military coup.
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jeremy cobert
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jmilum wrote:
If it was only a small part of the military that launched the coup attempt, what did the rest of the military do?


Most likely waited for orders.

In Turkey they have strict gun control, so the odds of a civilian firing back on an out of control military are much lower.

Quote:
“In Turkey, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by law,” the summary informs. “In Turkey, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms.”


But, thanks to Turkey we can remove that form the nutter play book.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
If it was only a small part of the military that launched the coup attempt, what did the rest of the military do?


Most likely waited for orders.

In Turkey they have strict gun control, so the odds of a civilian firing back on an out of control military are much lower.

Quote:
“In Turkey, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by law,” the summary informs. “In Turkey, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms.”


But, thanks to Turkey we can remove that form the nutter play book.
So...Let me get this straight.

Turkey has strict gun control?, AND SO THE UNARMED POPULACES ability to Defeat A military coup is proof that you need guns to fight oppression?

Really, the fact that they have strict gun control and were able to win, is proof that you need lose gun control to fight government oppression, really?
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Pontifex Maximus
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
If it was only a small part of the military that launched the coup attempt, what did the rest of the military do?


Most likely waited for orders.

In Turkey they have strict gun control, so the odds of a civilian firing back on an out of control military are much lower.

Quote:
“In Turkey, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by law,” the summary informs. “In Turkey, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic firearms and semi-automatic firearms.”


But, thanks to Turkey we can remove that form the nutter play book.


You do realize you are ceasing to make sense correct? That you just proved you don't need guns to stand up to a tyrannical government. Undercutting a major argument against gun control.

Just checking
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Ron Preisach
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I just love mall ninjas.
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Chad Ellis
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Kumitedad wrote:
You do realize you are ceasing to make sense correct? That you just proved you don't need guns to stand up to a tyrannical government. Undercutting a major argument against gun control.

Just checking


I think you may need to look up "ceasing".
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Chapel
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OR...or, maybe we can drop the U.S. government revolution fetish. I bet that would go a long way. Cause really, it's not happening.

You want to own a gun, great. You have that right. You want to hoard guns in a bunker waiting for uncle sam to come get you? You need serious help.
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Christopher Yaure
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Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.
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Boaty McBoatface
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actuaryesquire wrote:
Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.
What anti-gun arguemnt?

That Americans need guns to do what other peoples can do unarmed? Because the Turks did not need the second amendment to stand up to tyranny (and that is his point, that this proves why you need the second amendment, to be able to do this).
 
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Josh
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actuaryesquire wrote:
Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.


Would you care to expand on that?
 
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Christopher Yaure
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Shadrach wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.


Would you care to expand on that?


Sure. One argument in support of private ownership of weapons is to be able to revolt if necessary against the government, as the colonies did against England. An example of a situation that would justify a revolt is a military coup. A counterargument is that 1) a modern democracy will not face a mlitary coup, and 2) the people could not defeat a military coup that possessed modern weapons of warfare. Jeremy points out that the event in Turkey rebuts the two counterpoints.
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Boaty McBoatface
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actuaryesquire wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.


Would you care to expand on that?


Sure. One argument in support of private ownership of weapons is to be able to revolt if necessary against the government, as the colonies did against England. An example of a situation that would justify a revolt is a military coup. A counterargument is that 1) a modern democracy will not face a mlitary coup, and 2) the people could not defeat a military coup that possessed modern weapons of warfare. Jeremy points out that the event in Turkey rebuts the two counterpoints.
I have never heard an anti-gun argument that goes "coups are not possible in modern democratic nations" (I also find it ironic that at the time of this coup this was all being put down to evil Islamist, and not "the people" fighting for democracy).

I also do not think people have ever said that the people cannot defeat a coup, only that they cannot defeat an oppressive regime intent on using maximum force (as in Syria) to put down a rebellion.

The Turkish coup only shows that if a coup lacks motivation and support it cannot succeeded. It says nothing about the ability of the citizenry (armed or otherwise) to fight tyranny if the tyrant is determined to fight (this is also ironic, given how the likes of the OP have tried to paint this as a victory for undemocratic Islamist forces, and that the army were in fact the real force for democracy).

 
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Jon Badolato
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But this coup is SO limited in scope. It doesn't remotely compare to the superior firepower OBAMA will bring down on you once he has negated the coming elections and declares himself dictator for life by declaring martial law.



OK, joke mode off. The above would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that a boatload of Americans probably believe this.

NEED...MORE...GUNZ !!
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J.D. Hall
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I think Jeremy is too focused on a single issue and not the reality on the ground in Turkey.
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Erik Henry
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actuaryesquire wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
Jeremy's two points ARE both supported by the events in Turkey. Whether those two points are support for gun ownership is arguable, but he is validly shooting down an antigun argument.


Would you care to expand on that?


Sure. One argument in support of private ownership of weapons is to be able to revolt if necessary against the government, as the colonies did against England. An example of a situation that would justify a revolt is a military coup. A counterargument is that 1) a modern democracy will not face a mlitary coup, and 2) the people could not defeat a military coup that possessed modern weapons of warfare. Jeremy points out that the event in Turkey rebuts the two counterpoints.

You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would have been less successful. Those troops who were unwilling to fire probably would have had no problem firing back if they were fired upon. And they had tanks.
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jeremy cobert
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Erik17 wrote:
You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would have been less successful. Those troops who were unwilling to fire probably would have had no problem firing back if they were fired upon. And they had tanks.


You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would never happened in the first place as the members of the military would not want to take the chance.
 
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Sam I am
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jeremycobert wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would have been less successful. Those troops who were unwilling to fire probably would have had no problem firing back if they were fired upon. And they had tanks.


You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would never happened in the first place as the members of the military would not want to take the chance.

Bless your heart!
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Pontifex Maximus
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
You do realize you are ceasing to make sense correct? That you just proved you don't need guns to stand up to a tyrannical government. Undercutting a major argument against gun control.

Just checking


I think you may need to look up "ceasing".


Sorry. It was a late night and I might have taken the broader outlook outside the thread that at some point in his life he managed to make sense.

mea culpa
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Boaty McBoatface
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jeremycobert wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would have been less successful. Those troops who were unwilling to fire probably would have had no problem firing back if they were fired upon. And they had tanks.


You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would never happened in the first place as the members of the military would not want to take the chance.
Yes, and that would be a massive assumption (and less of a one to the idea that if the civilian population had resisted the military might have fired back, after all your cops do).

 
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J.D. Hall
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jeremycobert wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would have been less successful. Those troops who were unwilling to fire probably would have had no problem firing back if they were fired upon. And they had tanks.


You could even make a case that if Turkey had less strict gun laws and the citizens were armed then the resistance to the coup would never happened in the first place as the members of the military would not want to take the chance.

Hypothetical, you could be 100 percent correct. But in reality, the military officers who tried to topple the Turkish government were not going to slaughter their fellow citizens in order to reverse the trend toward an Islamic theocracy in their country.

I know this sounds lunatic, but what happened in Turkey this week is far more troubling to me than ISIS and their fellow travelers. Turkey is the literal bridge between Asia and Europe, the East and the West. A cursory glance at history will reveal how much fighting has been done over the Turkish straits for thousands of years. Having a secular, modern, Western-leaning government in Turkey has been a real plus for the West. Now that's about to go away.
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