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Craig S.
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Would it be zero or one?

I scoured the rules and couldn't find a mention of a minimum accuracy requirement for ranged attacks. Does this mean that attacking objects in your own space with a ranged attack requires no accuracy?

Before Bespin Gambit, all ranged attacks would normally always have an accuracy of at least 1, but with the new accuracy penalties it's now possible for an attack to have zero (or less) accuracy. Does a ranged attack with zero or less accuracy miss when you are attacking an object in your own space?
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Craig S.
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What raised the question are the holocams in the "Reclamation" mission. All attacks against them have a -3 penalty to accuracy, and there is a rule that melee attacks against them require 1 accuracy, but there is no mention of a minimum accuracy for ranged attacks in the briefing or anywhere in the game rules...
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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There are a few threads discussing this.

Objects and figures in the same space are actually not adjacent (except for the purposes of Blast and Cleave). Melee and ranged attacks are just allowed explicitly between them. And you can always draw line of sight from one to the other because you can draw LoS through the target.

If distance is measured like Counting Spaces says - how many spaces a small figure needs to move to get from the attacker to the target space, you get 0.

But attacking to the same space and to an adjacent space are practically the same distance for weapons.

Companions are defined to be adjacent to figures and objects in the same space, so it would suggest 1 accuracy. (Due to adjacent figures are 1 distance from each other.)

So, I would probably rule that 1 base accuracy is required when attacking objects or figures in the same space.
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Craig S.
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Well...I think, in that case, I would rule that the minimum accuracy for any ranged attack should always be one. You could make an argument that this assumption is implied by the fact that they included the rule about melee attacks requiring an accuracy of at least one but didn't mention ranged attacks at all. I can't imagine they would require accuracy for a melee attack but require none for a ranged attack...
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I have disagreed in the past and I continue to disagree here. The rule about adjacent things needing one accuracy firstly is a figure based rule, and secondly seems like a generalisation rather than a firm rule.

I don't think it should be taken to override special adjacency rules for figures in the same spaces, especially given that there was no possibility for figures to occupy the same space until Companions appeared.

I have always ruled that attacking an object in your space with a Ranger attack requires 0 Accuracy, and I will continue to do so. Yes, a combination of abilities, likely including Hidden, could make such an attack miss due to the rolled accuracy being negative.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
I have disagreed in the past and I continue to disagree here. The rule about adjacent things needing one accuracy firstly is a figure based rule, and secondly seems like a generalisation rather than a firm rule.

I don't think it should be taken to override special adjacency rules for figures in the same spaces, especially given that there was no possibility for figures to occupy the same space until Companions appeared.

I have always ruled that attacking an object in your space with a Ranger attack requires 0 Accuracy, and I will continue to do so. Yes, a combination of abilities, likely including Hidden, could make such an attack miss due to the rolled accuracy being negative.


But why would they make melee attacks (which normally don't require accuracy at all) against holocams require an accuracy of 1, meaning they require a melee attack against them to have at least 4 accuracy, and not require at least the same for a ranged attack?
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Pasi Ojala
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One reason is simplicity - you would need two or even rules: one for adjacent, one in the same space, and one for non-adjacent with Reach. A single rule is easier to remember.

I agree that Clipper's argument is valid. I like mine better for simplicity.

Maybe someone should ask which way it is.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
Yes, a combination of abilities, likely including Hidden, could make such an attack miss due to the rolled accuracy being negative.


See...if you cannot rule that a ranged attack at least requires more than zero accuracy, then what rule are you using to justify ruling that a negative accuracy will miss? There is nothing about minimum accuracy requirement for ranged attacks in the rules (which is the whole reason for this discussion). There is also nothing that says a negative accuracy result will always miss...
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Jorgen Peddersen
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csouth154 wrote:
See...if you cannot rule that a ranged attack at least requires more than zero accuracy, then what rule are you using to justify ruling that a negative accuracy will miss? There is nothing about minimum accuracy requirement for ranged attacks in the rules (which is the whole reason for this discussion). There is also nothing that says a negative accuracy result will always miss...


I am somewhat confused, as it seems all the questions here are answered by quoting this step of the Attack sequence:

RRG - Attacks wrote:
6. Check Accuracy: If performing a ranged attack the total
Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number
of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting
Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than
this number, the attack is a miss.


It is very clear that the target is 0 spaces away from the attacker if they share the same space. Thus, attacking an object you share a space with will miss if you roll less than zero Accuracy.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
See...if you cannot rule that a ranged attack at least requires more than zero accuracy, then what rule are you using to justify ruling that a negative accuracy will miss? There is nothing about minimum accuracy requirement for ranged attacks in the rules (which is the whole reason for this discussion). There is also nothing that says a negative accuracy result will always miss...


I am somewhat confused, as it seems all the questions here are answered by quoting this step of the Attack sequence:

RRG - Attacks wrote:
6. Check Accuracy: If performing a ranged attack the total
Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number
of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting
Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than
this number, the attack is a miss.


It is very clear that the target is 0 spaces away from the attacker if they share the same space. Thus, attacking an object you share a space with will miss if you roll less than zero Accuracy.


OK, I agree, of course that a negative accuracy would miss. My question was more rhetorical than genuine.

The confusion (mine, anyway) comes from the fact that they specifically require at least 1 accuracy for a melee attack to hit them. This is true even if they are in the same space...so why would a ranged attack, which always require accuracy, require any less accuracy than a melee attack, which usually require none?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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csouth154 wrote:
But why would they make melee attacks (which normally don't require accuracy at all) against holocams require an accuracy of 1, meaning they require a melee attack against them to have at least 4 accuracy, and not require at least the same for a ranged attack?

Note that the needed Accuracy for Melee does not change if you use Reach while 2 spaces away from the target; the needed base Accuracy is still 1.

Thus, comparisons of the minimum values isn't valid as the Melee Accuracy does not scale with closeness to the target. It's always 1 required Accuracy whether you are 0, 1 or 2 spaces away. Ranged attacks require X Accuracy where X is the number of spaces you are away. And both have a -3 penalty to the rolled amount.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
But why would they make melee attacks (which normally don't require accuracy at all) against holocams require an accuracy of 1, meaning they require a melee attack against them to have at least 4 accuracy, and not require at least the same for a ranged attack?

Note that the needed Accuracy for Melee does not change if you use Reach while 2 spaces away from the target; the needed base Accuracy is still 1.

Thus, comparisons of the minimum values isn't valid as the Melee Accuracy does not scale with closeness to the target. It's always 1 required Accuracy whether you are 0, 1 or 2 spaces away. Ranged attacks require X Accuracy where X is the number of spaces you are away. And both have a -3 penalty to the rolled amount.


Ok, but that doesn't address the issue of why it's logical that a melee attack from whatever range would need at least 1 accuracy while a ranged attack could hit with anything more than -1...
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Jorgen Peddersen
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csouth154 wrote:
Ok, but that doesn't address the issue of why it's logical that a melee attack from whatever range would need at least 1 accuracy while a ranged attack could hit with anything more than -1...


Only a Ranged attack from the target's space would need at least 0. Ranged attacks from further away would require more than that.

If what you are asking for is a thematic explanation, consider the cameras to be mounted near the roof. The Accuracy requirement for Melee attacks is a representation of the difficulty of holding your weapon in the air while still being able to swing at the cameras, which is not how the weapons would usually be used. This difficulty does not necessarily change even if hitting from a bit off to the side. A Ranged attacker directly underneath the camera would simply need to aim straight up, which isn't quite as hard.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
Only a Ranged attack from the target's space would need at least 0. Ranged attacks from further away would require more than that.



Right. Ranged attack against an object in your space is the whole context of the question. I really think the ruling will come back that any ranged attack requires at least 1 accuracy. Before the new expansion, it was not possible for a ranged attack to come up with less than 1 accuracy. I think they just neglected to address this particular situation.
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Craig S.
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I wrote:
Does a ranged attack against a token in your space require at least 1 accuracy to hit? Or at least zero?


Paul Winchester wrote:
Hi Craig,

The answer depends on whether the token is a companion or an object. Generally speaking, attacking something in your space requires 0 Accuracy. However, if that token is a companion, companion’s in your space are considered to be adjacent to you and a rule in the RRG under Ranged Attack states that attacks targeting adjacent figures require at least 1 Accuracy.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
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