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Subject: Can you start combat against workers if you have 0 popularity? rss

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GAF Blizzard
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This question came up in a Sessions thread.

The rules don't explicitly say about combat, but page 11 covers the case of moving a character/mech onto unguarded workers: "(in the case that you cannot reduce your popularity any further, the workers are still forced to retreat)".

I would guess that combat works the same way -- you can attack a mech guarding workers even if you have 0 popularity, and you just stay at 0 if you win?
 
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Greg
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Sure, that seems to make sense, but it is a tall hill to climb to get into the 2nd tier of popularity.


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Milo Gertjejansen
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I look at it as a consequence, not a cost.

You are not paying popularity, but you will lose it if you can.

So, a player who is highly unpopular may turn into a loose cannon with nothing to lose.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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GAFBlizzard wrote:
This question came up in a Sessions thread.

The rules don't explicitly say about combat, but page 11 covers the case of moving a character/mech onto unguarded workers: "(in the case that you cannot reduce your popularity any further, the workers are still forced to retreat)".

I would guess that combat works the same way -- you can attack a mech guarding workers even if you have 0 popularity, and you just stay at 0 if you win?


The rules place no restriction on when you may attack based on popularity so I cannot see why you wouldn't be able to initiate combat regardless of popularity level. If there were a limitation the rules would describe it.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Milo says it well--it's a consequence, not a cost. There is no cost to moving into a territory or attacking a territory with an opponent's worker, just a consequence (or negative benefit). So you can definitely do that even if you have 0 popularity.
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Chris Laudermilk
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I'll move my reply from the other thread as well.

Check pg 22-23 for combat rules. The only mention of popularity is under "Winning" on page 23, where it states:
Quote:
If the winner was the attacker, they lose 1 popularity for each worker they forced to retreat by initiating and winning combat.


I read that as if there are no defending workers present, then there is no popularity cost involved regardless of outcome.


Again, I'll be interested to read Jamey's take on this one.
Edit: Once again ninja'ed by Jamey (I'm keeping my star though). So, my initial take on this was wrong, noted & I'll keep this in mind if it comes up in one of my games (unlikely--we rarely if ever get to 0 popularity).
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Drake Coker
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I suspect all costs either (a) are on a red background or (b) say the word "pay". Other penalties would be consequences and not costs.

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Greg
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There's a difference between upfront cost and resulting consequences.

Pay $1 to do X (can't do X if you don't have $1)

If you do X you will lose $1 (if you have $0 then you can still do X but you can't lose what you don't have).
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Kurt FromVirginia
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What I find slightly confusing is the language found on page 13 (relating to Produce) under the section: Payment is Required:

"As is the case with any action, you must be able to pay the full cost to take the Produce action. If you don't have the coins, popularity, and/or power, you must take other actions instead".

Nonetheless, Jamie has spoken above - it's clear that you can Move (an action) into a territory controlled by an opposing worker even if you don't have any popularity. There is no "Cost" to Moving.
 
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Greg
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khesser wrote:
What I find slightly confusing is the language found on page 13 (relating to Produce) under the section: Payment is Required:

"As is the case with any action, you must be able to pay the full cost to take the Produce action. If you don't have the coins, popularity, and/or power, you must take other actions instead".

Nonetheless, Jamie has spoken above - it's clear that you can Move (an action) into a territory controlled by an opposing worker even if you don't have any popularity. There is no "Cost" to Moving.


There's no upfront cost to combat either.

Besides actions with an upfront cost Tha one section quoted would pertain to encounter cards. If you had 0 popularity and one of the options on the encounter card required you to pay popularity, then you can't chose that option because you can't pay for it.
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Joe C.
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I just won a 5-player game tonight, as Black, by sitting at 0 Popularity for essentially the entire game. In the 5-player game before it, I won with ~5 Popularity. As best I can tell, the only major disadvantage to low/no Popularity is not being able to afford to pay certain card costs... which is hardly much of an issue, really.

I'd guess things may change, as my group gains more experience with the game. Will see.
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Greg
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I imagine that will change when others get more experience, as someone else in tier 2 or 3 of the popularity track will get so many more points from the endgame multipliers.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Yelmac wrote:
the only major disadvantage to low/no Popularity is not being able to afford to pay certain card costs...


...and scoring lower for hexes/stars/resources at the end.
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