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Subject: 3-Players, angry with score-keeping mistakes. Are coins too similar? rss

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Ryan Opp
United States
Greeley
Colorado
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We tried something new tonight. Since the rules say, "You are never required to reveal the total value of your coins to other players," and we enjoy the surprise endings in which one player gets 6 stars but still loses because he is short on coins, we decided to keep our stashes out of sight, in a cup, the box lid, etc. We are NEVER doing that again. People can't do math and need to be policed.

In any game, there is always that one guy who isn't paying attention to the rules presentation (due to cell phone calls from wife), and makes terrible choices once the game begins, but eventually seems to get it, but is still going to lose. Well, at least you can identify who is in last place fairly easily by how little territory they control, how few resources they have, and how they haven't done much and can barely get off their peninsula. Throughout the game, he is constantly forgetting to pay for things, which I think I caught most of, but maybe not, and riverwalking where he can't, which actually led to a huge fiasco several turns after we discovered it. I said, "Let it slide, he's in last place anyway." Then this guy announces a score of 97! What can we do? He's anxious to sign the achievement sheet (thank God he didn't get over 100), and took two good spots on there.

Here I think is the problem: he said he had over 60 points before final scoring, and said he was trying not to get confused, so kept his money in as large and few coins as possible, a practice most of us do to keep the smaller stuff in circulation. I think the 5-coins and 10-coins look too similar, and he was trading two 5s for a 20 repeatedly. Anybody else have this problem? And this guy is not an idiot. He is an engineer who has a degree and makes way more money than I do.

I am not a sore loser, but it is my copy of the game and I feel the achievement sheet is soiled. I am considering removing all 5-coins from the game in the future.
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fortheloveofdice
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The rules say your coins must be kept on your player mat although you can keep them messy or stacked as you wish as you don't actually have to tell someone else how much money you have.

Maybe have a banker, or always require someone else to give money / do money changing.

I haven't looked at the paper coins but I'm ok with them with the realistic coins. I also keep the stores organised in such a fashion that it would be hard to make that mistake - when you put the old coins back they'd look wrong, or you'd be reaching for the wrong place.

If you're going to worry about it, sure, do something different with the coins. Or swap in coins from another game. Whatever makes it fun, right?

Keep track of your own achievements. Does the sheet really matter if you know the score, so to speak? I can't bring myself to actually ink the achievement sheet though! But try to remind yourself your own knowledge is more important than someone else's assumptions.

Hope you have more fun next time.
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Matt L.
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You can print off more of the achievement sheets.

I think the coins are fine, they have denominations printed on them. Sounds like a dumb but silly mistake.
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David desJardins
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This isn't the only game where some players have a tendency to make mistakes in their own favor. I prefer playing with open money, for this among other reasons, but if not, have one person making change.
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Christoph Weber
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RyTracer wrote:
We tried something new tonight. Since the rules say, "You are never required to reveal the total value of your coins to other players," and we enjoy the surprise endings in which one player gets 6 stars but still loses because he is short on coins, we decided to keep our stashes out of sight, in a cup, the box lid, etc. We are NEVER doing that again. People can't do math and need to be policed.

In any game, there is always that one guy who isn't paying attention to the rules presentation (due to cell phone calls from wife), and makes terrible choices once the game begins, but eventually seems to get it, but is still going to lose. Well, at least you can identify who is in last place fairly easily by how little territory they control, how few resources they have, and how they haven't done much and can barely get off their peninsula. Throughout the game, he is constantly forgetting to pay for things, which I think I caught most of, but maybe not, and riverwalking where he can't, which actually led to a huge fiasco several turns after we discovered it. I said, "Let it slide, he's in last place anyway." Then this guy announces a score of 97! What can we do? He's anxious to sign the achievement sheet (thank God he didn't get over 100), and took two good spots on there.

Here I think is the problem: he said he had over 60 points before final scoring, and said he was trying not to get confused, so kept his money in as large and few coins as possible, a practice most of us do to keep the smaller stuff in circulation. I think the 5-coins and 10-coins look too similar, and he was trading two 5s for a 20 repeatedly. Anybody else have this problem? And this guy is not an idiot. He is an engineer who has a degree and makes way more money than I do.

I am not a sore loser, but it is my copy of the game and I feel the achievement sheet is soiled. I am considering removing all 5-coins from the game in the future.


I'd first try to make sure that your friend didn't do this on purpose. You already mentioned that he is a smart guy, and maybe after feeling he ruined his chances in the game early on he decided to nudge the game a little in his favor?
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A J
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There's a big tendency to not pay enough attention to other people's turns in this game, but it's very important to, so it's sort of on the rest of the players to "police" each other. It's easy to forget to pay that cost on the top action or move across a river illegally or produce where you can't. People like to take shortcuts, which is fine most of the time, but everyone needs to keep track of others. Don't just "trust" someone's math. Likely it's not an attempt to cheat, but just simple forgetfulness.

Something that helps is everyone narrating their action. "I'm producing. Paying a power and popularity to produce. Producing on these two hexes..."
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Chris Laudermilk
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Sounds to me like a player issue, not a game issue. TBH, he does not sound like someone I'd care to play a game with.
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Patrick G.
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claudermilk wrote:
Sounds to me like a player issue, not a game issue. TBH, he does not sound like someone I'd care to play a game with.

QFT
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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The metal coins are a lot easier to tell the difference. Glad I got those in mine set...

-shnar
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Ryan Opp
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Greeley
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OP here, sorry about the rant. It is just frustrating to devote 3 hours of time to something that turns out to be a waste, and when I got home I was angry.

But if anyone has a similar experience perhaps they can learn from this. I, myself, have never had trouble with the metal coin denominations, but make sure all of your opponents are good with them.

So I've done the math now, getting out the player boards and a calculator, and I believe the player was off by about 25 points, which makes him lose. So we'll use white out. If you're gonna write on the sheet anyway, what's a little white out?

Thanks for the replies. Sorry this wasn't a typical session report, but the details of the game are lame now since the whole thing was messed up. This was only my second game of Scythe, and I am withholding my rating until I get more plays in.
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Ryan Opp
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shnar wrote:
The metal coins are a lot easier to tell the difference. Glad I got those in mine set...

-shnar


I was referring to the metal coins. I think they are very similar.
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A J
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RyTracer wrote:
OP here, sorry about the rant. It is just frustrating to devote 3 hours of time to something that turns out to be a waste, and when I got home I was angry.

But if anyone has a similar experience perhaps they can learn from this. I, myself, have never had trouble with the metal coin denominations, but make sure all of your opponents are good with them.

So I've done the math now, getting out the player boards and a calculator, and I believe the player was off by about 25 points, which makes him lose. So we'll use white out. If you're gonna write on the sheet anyway, what's a little white out?

Thanks for the replies. Sorry this wasn't a typical session report, but the details of the game are lame now since the whole thing was messed up. This was only my second game of Scythe, and I am withholding my rating until I get more plays in.


Pretty sure our scoring was messed up for at least the first 3 games we played because people forgot numerous things during the game.
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Philip Mazzone
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Lets just say if there was a sheet going around to change the size/color of one of those denominations to set it apart a bit more from the other, Id certainly sign it. A very weird decision to me, they can easily be mistaken. And yes, I do have and play with the metal ones.
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E Thomas
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RyTracer wrote:
He is an engineer who has a degree and makes way more money than I do.

Apparently in games and in life. I once scored 265 in Scythe by employing your friends very tactics.
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A J
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Xhawk wrote:
Lets just say if there was a sheet going around to change the size/color of one of those denominations to set it apart a bit more from the other, Id certainly sign it. A very weird decision to me, they can easily be mistaken. And yes, I do have and play with the metal ones.


Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.
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Jason Brown
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ayejae wrote:
Xhawk wrote:
Lets just say if there was a sheet going around to change the size/color of one of those denominations to set it apart a bit more from the other, Id certainly sign it. A very weird decision to me, they can easily be mistaken. And yes, I do have and play with the metal ones.


Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.

Tha $1 and $20 bills are similar in size and color too and most people don't have an issue telling them apart. Maybe I'm cynical, but the big number gives it away for me.
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Chris Laudermilk
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ayejae wrote:
Xhawk wrote:
Lets just say if there was a sheet going around to change the size/color of one of those denominations to set it apart a bit more from the other, Id certainly sign it. A very weird decision to me, they can easily be mistaken. And yes, I do have and play with the metal ones.


Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.


Who's forgotten the Great $5 Coin Finish Debate? There was a very long discussion in the comments and a couple of update comments regarding the metal coin finishes & the similarity of the $5 and $10. I recall that no everyone was entirely happy with the final decision. I do agree they are similar, but I prefer the final product to some of the garish proposals. Besides, it lets you stack them up and slightly obfuscate what your stash actually is (not that I've done that...whistle)
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Greg
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I use the lids of the plastic resource containers to keep the coins in. 1's, 3's and 5's each get their own lid, the 10's and 20's share a lid. They are also lined up in ascending order, so that all makes it easier to keep it all straight.
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A J
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
ayejae wrote:
Xhawk wrote:
Lets just say if there was a sheet going around to change the size/color of one of those denominations to set it apart a bit more from the other, Id certainly sign it. A very weird decision to me, they can easily be mistaken. And yes, I do have and play with the metal ones.


Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.

Tha $1 and $20 bills are similar in size and color too and most people don't have an issue telling them apart. Maybe I'm cynical, but the big number gives it away for me.


This isn't a fair comparison. Dollar bills have high contrast, large font size numbers on all 4 corners on both faces. These coins only have the number on one side with raised font. There's a reason why a country's coined currency are made in different sizes, shapes, and colors.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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RyTracer wrote:
And this guy is not an idiot.


While this may very well be true...

RyTracer wrote:
He is an engineer who has a degree and makes way more money than I do.


...these three facts don't prove it on their own.
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Lutz Pietschker
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ayejae wrote:
Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.

The coins, both metal and cardboard, are the best I have come across for a long time. Perfect denomination steps, different colours & symbols, numbers visible on the coins, different sizes, referencing the factions present in the game – I can find absolutely nothing wrong with them.
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Francisco Gutierrez
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RyTracer wrote:
He is an engineer who has a degree and makes way more money than I do.


Are you sure about that? You might want to take a look at his earnings and make sure he isn't counting the same dollars multiple times.
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A J
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PunTheHun wrote:
ayejae wrote:
Yeah those 5's and 10's are so similar in size and color.

The coins, both metal and cardboard, are the best I have come across for a long time. Perfect denomination steps, different colours & symbols, numbers visible on the coins, different sizes, referencing the factions present in the game – I can find absolutely nothing wrong with them.


Well, all I know is that our group constantly has trouble telling the 5's and 10's apart, and I know we're not the only ones because I've heard it online in other places. It's not game-breaking, and the rest of the coins are great, but it remains many of us have trouble telling them apart.
 
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Troy Laurin
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There's a simple way around the issue. I don't put the 10 or 20 value coins out while the game is playing, they only come out for end-of-game scoring.

The likelihood of running out of coins in-game is vanishingly small, even using just the smaller denominations.
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Scott C
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The 5's and the 10's are similarly colored, which can make them a nuisance to distinguish (especially when sifting through the pile of coins that tends to be my bank) in some lighting. I'd definitely encourage people to be extra mindful of the printed denominations stamped on them.

Or, leave the 10's out of the pile 'till scoring, as was suggested up-thread.

Or have players serve as each others' bankers, also suggested up-thread.

They're still fantastic coins.
 
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