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Subject: Workers on an Opponent-Controlled Mill rss

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Ian Spaulding
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This thought came to mind when discussing something else.

The rules for the mill are as follows:
Quote:
Mill: Whenever you take the Produce action, the Mill may produce as if it were 1 worker. If there are workers on the Mill's territory they may also produce.


Since buildings you control still maintain their benefit even if you no longer control the hex they are on, this implies that taking a Produce action will still optionally allow your mill to produce in enemy-controlled territory.

This then raises the question of if an opponent controls a hex with your mill on it, and has workers in that hex, would those workers also produce if you chose to Produce with the mill? Would the choice for them to produce or not be yours, or your opponent's?

This seems ill-advised in general, but it may be strategically beneficial to "fatten up" a territory that you're planning on taking anyway, or perhaps to entice a neighbor to take a particular action for recruit bonuses or otherwise.
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John Huss
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I would assume that the mill either:

Still produces, but not the opponent's workers. Therefore, your opponent gets the resource.

Or:

You can't choose to produce on a mill if you don't control the territory. I am leaning towards the second one, but I'll have to dig through the Produce rules.
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Niko
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I can't find the thread where he posted it, but Jamey has stated that you cannot produce on an enemy controlled territory.

EDIT: So John's second option.
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Sky Zero
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GizmotronX5000 wrote:
I would assume that the mill either:

Still produces, but not the opponent's workers. Therefore, your opponent gets the resource.

Or:

You can't choose to produce on a mill if you don't control the territory. I am leaning towards the second one, but I'll have to dig through the Produce rules.


Also is the opposite true, if I control an enemy mill, does it produce for me if I control it?

I would argue whoever controls the hex controls mill production. If that isn't true then the mill should be destroyed or returned to the owners board if the hex is taken over. It would certainly encourage more combat if the buildings could be destroyed or returned to a player board (thus losing your bonus). Boom, variant!
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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We've talked about this elsewhere, and I'm afraid that my answer was not correct. Here is the correct answer:

You can only Produce on territories you control:



So if you don't control the territory your Mill is on, your Mill cannot produce anything (the Mill acts as a worker when you Produce).
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timbob1907 Tim
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skyzero wrote:
I would argue whoever controls the hex controls mill production. If that isn't true then the mill should be destroyed or returned to the owners board if the hex is taken over. It would certainly encourage more combat if the buildings could be destroyed or returned to a player board (thus losing your bonus). Boom, variant!

I'm not sure if that would encourage more combat. If I knew an enemy could just rebuild their mill I think I would be less eager to take it over. They might even want me to take it out so they can relocate it top a new resource.
I think being able to block production is actually the more aggressive option.
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Klaus Kristiansen
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That does not answer the question. The territories you choose must be ones you control. The mill is in addition to this.

But since you, the designer of the game, says that it is so, it is.
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Sky Zero
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timbob1907 wrote:
I'm not sure if that would encourage more combat. If I knew an enemy could just rebuild their mill I think I would be less eager to take it over. They might even want me to take it out so they can relocate it top a new resource.
I think being able to block production is actually the more aggressive option.


Agreed. The combination of blocking production + getting benefit of the mill may encourage more combat for the hex. Will house rule it this weekend and see how it goes.
 
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Ian Spaulding
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That makes sense, but the wording is unclear, especially since there's a clear divide between the upper-case Produce action and the lower-case produce that workers do that results in resources on the board. (Where the Produce action allows your workers to then produce, placing resources on the board - this is especially apparent in the Mill wording since it specifically calls out the individual workers on the Mill's territory to produce.)

That is, the wording on how the Mill operates skips the step of having to choose territories you control, skipping directly to the lower-case produce. Reiterating that "the Mill acts as a worker" doesn't help clarify this either, since there can never be a situation where a worker is in enemy-controlled territory.

This is also important since it appears to break the rule of how buildings retain your benefit even if the territory they are in is not under your control.

I'm not quite sure of a better way to word the rule, however. Maybe just adding a conditional "if the Mill in in a territory you control, the Mill may produce as if..."?
 
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timbob1907 Tim
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skyzero wrote:
Agreed. The combination of blocking production + getting benefit of the mill may encourage more combat for the hex. Will house rule it this weekend and see how it goes.

Well to be clear I was just commenting on the way it is in the game. I think being able to use other people's mills might run you into issues and is probably too powerful. But if you have friends that want to give it a try you can see how it turns out
 
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Benjamin Lindvall
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Even if you did allow the mill to produce, the enemy still has control of the hex and any resources on it. It would never be in your favor. You'd just be literally handing points to your opponent.
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Ryan Opp
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We had a strategic use of this come up before. My mill was in enemy hands, but looking at the player boards, I knew if I produced a resource there (food in this case), the controlling player would neither be able to spend it or move it before my next turn when I could take over that hex and get it back. I liked the rare strategy there, as it could easily backfire. We ruled that having your mill produce in enemy country is optional. We do not allow enemies to use other people's mills for their production though. We thematically say that we left a big ole padlock on it before we were kicked out, one of those electromagnetic kind that Tesla invented that even a mech can't take off without the key.
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Ryan Opp
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I see the official clarification from Jamie on this, but was wondering about consistency with the other buildings. If we say that a the mill is inactive if held by an enemy...

Do monuments and armories not produce popularity and power for you if held by the enemy?

Can you not travel backwards through a tunnel to your own mine to reclaim it if the enemy holds it?

Things to think about.
 
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Winston Spencer
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RyTracer wrote:
I see the official clarification from Jamie on this, but was wondering about consistency with the other buildings. If we say that a the mill is inactive if held by an enemy...

Do monuments and armories not produce popularity and power for you if held by the enemy?

Can you not travel backwards through a tunnel to your own mine to reclaim it if the enemy holds it?

Things to think about.


You can think that the Mill is active, the problem is with the Produce that only work if you control the territory.
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Joe Pilkus
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It would stand to reason that both an Armory and Monument would confer no benefit if under enemy control, while the Mine is never under enemy control, as you can use it...the enemy may not.

Cheers,
Joe
 
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Sky Zero
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timbob1907 wrote:
skyzero wrote:
Agreed. The combination of blocking production + getting benefit of the mill may encourage more combat for the hex. Will house rule it this weekend and see how it goes.

Well to be clear I was just commenting on the way it is in the game. I think being able to use other people's mills might run you into issues and is probably too powerful. But if you have friends that want to give it a try you can see how it turns out


I little unbalance is what I'd like to see a bit more of actually. Makes the defense and control to maintain balance a bit more exciting. Played half a dozen games and I'm starting to feel a pattern of optimal moves. Maybe it won't work out, but then again, maybe it will add a bit of fun unpredictability. We'll see.
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A J
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skyzero wrote:
timbob1907 wrote:
skyzero wrote:
Agreed. The combination of blocking production + getting benefit of the mill may encourage more combat for the hex. Will house rule it this weekend and see how it goes.

Well to be clear I was just commenting on the way it is in the game. I think being able to use other people's mills might run you into issues and is probably too powerful. But if you have friends that want to give it a try you can see how it turns out


I little unbalance is what I'd like to see a bit more of actually. Makes the defense and control to maintain balance a bit more exciting. Played half a dozen games and I'm starting to feel a pattern of optimal moves. Maybe it won't work out, but then again, maybe it will add a bit of fun unpredictability. We'll see.


Most certainly will increase average game time.
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Sky Zero
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ayejae wrote:
skyzero wrote:
timbob1907 wrote:
skyzero wrote:
Agreed. The combination of blocking production + getting benefit of the mill may encourage more combat for the hex. Will house rule it this weekend and see how it goes.

Well to be clear I was just commenting on the way it is in the game. I think being able to use other people's mills might run you into issues and is probably too powerful. But if you have friends that want to give it a try you can see how it turns out


I little unbalance is what I'd like to see a bit more of actually. Makes the defense and control to maintain balance a bit more exciting. Played half a dozen games and I'm starting to feel a pattern of optimal moves. Maybe it won't work out, but then again, maybe it will add a bit of fun unpredictability. We'll see.


Most certainly will increase average game time.


Maybe, maybe not. It's a fairly immaterial time adding component so I don't suspect any. Will time the games and find out.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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It's clear in the rules that you continue to gain bonuses from structures even if you don't control the territories those structures are on. The one exception to that is the Mill, because, per my previous comment on this chain, you can only Produce on territories you control.

So (Klaus), that does answer the OP's question:

"This then raises the question of if an opponent controls a hex with your mill on it, and has workers in that hex, would those workers also produce if you chose to Produce with the mill? Would the choice for them to produce or not be yours, or your opponent's?"

If you don't control the territory, you cannot choose to produce with your Mill. That choice is only available to you if you control the territory. The opponent controls the territory, so they alone may choose to produce there.
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A J
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jameystegmaier wrote:
If you don't control the territory, you cannot choose to produce with your Mill. That choice is only available to you if you control the territory. The opponent controls the territory, so they alone may choose to produce there.


Just to clarify your statement: Your opponent cannot use your mill, right? If your opponent controls the territory with your Mill on it, the Mill becomes irrelevant?
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Jamey Stegmaier
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That's correct. It's noted on the Structures page in the rules:

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A J
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jameystegmaier wrote:
That's correct. It's noted on the Structures page in the rules:



Yeah I can see how that would be confusing for the Mill. Glad we talked about all this.
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Sky Zero
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jameystegmaier wrote:
That's correct. It's noted on the Structures page in the rules:



Was that a balancing choice? Just curious. Thematically, I would think if I control a territory, I reap the benefits of that space, including structures that produce. I couldn't see hard working people ignoring the benefits of a windmill in their land. It's a minor thing, but could help with theme and immersion while simplifying rules to "whoever controls the hex can produce with a windmill. And if the hex only contains a windmill, the player color controls it".
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Derek Dyer
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The mill is locked, you do not have the key.

It would almost certainly be too good to have multiple mills. It would make it harder to place your own optimally, and become a more compelling target.
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A J
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Calinor wrote:
The mill is locked, you do not have the key.

It would almost certainly be too good to have multiple mills. It would make it harder to place your own optimally, and become a more compelling target.


We probably need to stop being logical about it. I'm pretty sure my 60-ton mech that just took over your mill can break down whatever door you may have installed, lol. laugh
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