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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Multiple Attacks (Additional Phaser Array) rss

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James Weidlich
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With all of the cards granting an additional attack, how does it all work?

Lets use the wonderful Ent-D. We'll put Captain Karr on charge.

If I'm shooting at a captain with lower captain skill is the first shot 5 dice and the second shot 3 dice (2 less) or 4 dice (2 less then Karr again)?

What if I use Ro Lauren? Is it 6 dice; then 4 dice (2 less) or 2 dice (2 less then remove Ro Laurens dice)

Sorry if these questions have been asked before?
 
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Captain Shran
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I guess it is whatever you would normally roll for the additional attack minus 2.

I don't understand quite the question with Karr. When attacking a lower skill captain with the Ent-D, you would roll 5 dice. With the second attack you would roll 3 dice (5 dice minus 2). I'm certain that you don't get a double bonus from Karr or anything.

With Ro Laren you would roll 6 dice and then 2 dice, since Ro's ability only affects one attack (I think).
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Evan
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Yep. Here's the relevant part of the tournament rules:
Quote:
26. When a card ability allows a player to gain a certain number of attack dice “this round” it allows the player to add that many attack dice (in total) to their attack rolls during that round’s Combat Phase. If a player is able to make multiple attacks during the same Combat Phase, the player may choose when to add the bonus attack dice. These dice can even be added to Secondary Weapon attacks.
...
Note that this type of text is different from a continuous bonus that does not use the phrase “this round” (for example, the text on Donatra or Terrell). A continuous bonus applies to all attack and defense rolls made by the affected ships during that round.



To summarize, effects that affect a single attack (like Ro) and effects that give you additional dice "this round" (like Scotty) can only be used on one attack or other other. Continuous effects like Donatra (and presumably Karr) affect both attacks, but yeah, it'd be a hard case to make that his bonus is cumulative with itself.
 
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Brian Johnsen
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There's no presumably about Karr. His card says "when attacking" so it applies to all attacks that round according to #23b in the tournament rules.
Quote:
All cards that contain non-ACTION text abilities that are optionally triggered by a player may only be used once per round per ship per card.
a. Cards with continuous effects may affect multiple dice rolls in a round.
b. Cards that state “each time” OR “every time” OR “When defending” OR “When Attacking” may be used multiple times per round.
 
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Evan
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Right, I was just noting the strangeness of lumping him in with Donatra, since (as you say) he's not really covered by any of the Rule 26 cases.

And here's an odd overlap between 23b and 26: 5th Wing Patrol Ship says "when attacking this round." So it triggers twice on APA, and you can either use the first +1 on that attack or save it and use them both on the second?
(I guess this is even more relevant to our Energy Dissipator discussion...)
 
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Richard Brill
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When attacking only applies to the first sentence, for Karr's ability to re-roll one die twice, and so happens with every attack. His additional ability (adding an extra attack die) does not say "when attacking" in the sentence and so only occurs once per round.
 
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Richard Brill
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I think, since the 5th Attack Ship ability is an Action, it is not limited by the "may" ruling and can be used for every attack that round. However, I don't think you can save the additional die from one attack and use both in the second attack.
 
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Evan
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Damar wrote:
His additional ability (adding an extra attack die) does not say "when attacking" in the sentence and so only occurs once per round.


Ah, we stand corrected. 23b doesn't apply. ...That said, we didn't need to go there because 23 already has it covered: it's not an optional trigger.
 
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Brian Johnsen
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Doesn't the "in addition" in Karr's second sentence mean that it also applies "when attacking"? Otherwise, what's the point of having it on there?
 
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Michael Pantner
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ooh, I hadn't thought of using additional phaser array on a ship with Karr on it...
 
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Richard Brill
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Supposedly, if you have multiple passive (non-Action) abilities on a card you can only do one of them per round. "In addition" text allows you to do both in one round.
 
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Evan
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Damar wrote:
Supposedly, if you have multiple passive (non-Action) abilities on a card you can only do one of them per round.


Well, Shelby, for example, can trigger all of her passive abilities in a single round: the optional ones only once each, and the non-optional one as many times as she defends. That's a consequence of 23, "non-ACTION text abilities that are optionally triggered by a player may only be used once per round per ship per card."

You may be conflating this rule with 38 ("A token may only activate a single ability off of a single card per round"), which is the reason why a card like Science Officer can only trigger one of its two abilities per round. (Assuming it only has a single scan token; if you have two, you can use both.)

MormegilND wrote:
Doesn't the "in addition" in Karr's second sentence mean that it also applies "when attacking"? Otherwise, what's the point of having it on there?


Good question. "In addition" shows up on a ton of cards, and most of the time all it appears to mean is "here's a second effect." On cards where it might make a difference, such as Modified Cloaking Device or Biogenic Field, trying to read the In Addition sentence as having the same conditions as its predecessor leads to contradiction or just gibberish.
Granted, Karr's text is much friendlier to that interpretation than the others, but as I said, it doesn't make a difference either way.
 
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Richard Brill
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kobold47 wrote:
Damar wrote:
Supposedly, if you have multiple passive (non-Action) abilities on a card you can only do one of them per round.


Well, Shelby, for example, can trigger all of her passive abilities in a single round: the optional ones only once each, and the non-optional one as many times as she defends. That's a consequence of 23, "non-ACTION text abilities that are optionally triggered by a player may only be used once per round per ship per card."

You may be conflating this rule with 38 ("A token may only activate a single ability off of a single card per round"), which is the reason why a card like Science Officer can only trigger one of its two abilities per round. (Assuming it only has a single scan token; if you have two, you can use both.)


Sorry I don't know how to link to this better . . . but the discussion is applicable.

From W.O.R.F

Re: Captain Kerla - usable multiple times per attack?
Postby stawrulesteam » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:19 pm

No, the distinction is the wording. The wording "Each time you defend" allows him to activate multiple times per turn.

In your examples Picard and Gul Dukat may only activate once per turn because they are actions.
Weyoun 6 may only activate once per turn because he is an optional effect.

TOS Sulu may only be "activated" once per turn because he is an ACTION. But, his effect is continuous and affects all defense rolls.
Boheeka may only be activated once per turn because he is an optional effect and does not use the phrase "Each time you attack".
Shelby is unique. She has 3 abilties. 1 is continuous "If you are defending against an attack from a Borg ship, you roll +1 defense die during the Roll Defense Dice step" and 2 are optional "During the Modify Defense Dice step of the Combat Phase, you may re-roll one of you blank results." & "(attack from a Borg ship) you may re-roll all of you blank results during the Modify Defense Dice step." The only 1 optional effect may only be activated once per round.
 
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Thomas Plummer
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Posting here to avoid creating an other thread,

My friend had a question. He has Archer on the Ent D with the Additional Phaser array. Using Archer's ability, "For each crew upgrade you disable with this action, gain +1 attack die when attacking with your primary weapon...."and the Ent-D's special ability, he could get two attacks backwards.

The question is, what attack values would these have? I said it would be 5 and 1[(3+2) and (3-2)], He believes it would be 5(3+2) and 3(3+2-2).

 
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Steven Redfearn
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Dracomax wrote:
Posting here to avoid creating an other thread,

My friend had a question. He has Archer on the Ent D with the Additional Phaser array. Using Archer's ability, "For each crew upgrade you disable with this action, gain +1 attack die when attacking with your primary weapon...."and the Ent-D's special ability, he could get two attacks backwards.

The question is, what attack values would these have? I said it would be 5 and 1[(3+2) and (3-2)], He believes it would be 5(3+2) and 3(3+2-2).



"May" ruling should mean he only gets 1 360 attack.
I think your friend has it right on the bonuses, 5 and 3.
 
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Evan
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The text is a little ambiguous, but I read "after you make an attack with your primary weapon...make an additional attack with your Primary Weapon at -2 attack dice" the other way: you're not calculating the number of dice based on the first attack, you're making a whole new primary attack at whatever value you normally would, minus 2.

But yeah, either way he should only be able to trigger the 360 ability once per turn.
 
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Michael Pantner
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most times you are granted extra attack dice, they are for the entire combat round.

ie, i had a ship with Remata'Klan on it. If i'm in the forward firing arc of 2 ships i gain +2 attack dice.
That ship also had Fire at Will, which allows me to make 2 attacks.
I did not get 4 bonus dice (ie, +2 for each attack), i got 2.

There are a handful that are continuous, so they apply to all attacks. Donatra is one. I think Karr.
 
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Steven Redfearn
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pantner wrote:
most times you are granted extra attack dice, they are for the entire combat round.

ie, i had a ship with Remata'Klan on it. If i'm in the forward firing arc of 2 ships i gain +2 attack dice.
That ship also had Fire at Will, which allows me to make 2 attacks.
I did not get 4 bonus dice (ie, +2 for each attack), i got 2.

There are a handful that are continuous, so they apply to all attacks. Donatra is one. I think Karr.


?? Did I miss something? Remata specifically calls out a +2 for all your attacks, so you should get the +2 on the attacks from Fire At Will.
**both attacks will be Base-1(FaW)+2(Remata), for a net of Base+1
 
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Brian Johnsen
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SMDMadCow wrote:
?? Did I miss something? Remata specifically calls out a +2 for all your attacks, so you should get the +2 on the attacks from Fire At Will.
**both attacks will be Base-1(FaW)+2(Remata), for a net of Base+1

Correct. Remata'Klan should have applied to all attacks that round.

Dracomax wrote:
The question is, what attack values would these have? I said it would be 5 and 1[(3+2) and (3-2)], He believes it would be 5(3+2) and 3(3+2-2).

Tounament Rules - Addition Rules section wrote:
26. When a card ability allows a player to gain a certain number of attack dice "this round" it allows the player to add that many attack dice (in total) to their attack rolls during that round's Combat Phase. If a player is able to make multiple attacks during the same Combat Phase, the player may choose when to add the bonus attack dice.

I read Archer's text as not being a continuous effect, just granting a certain number of bonus dice. Therefore he grants you up to +2 attack dice, to be used (or split) as you see fit. As Evan said, only one of the attacks can be a 360. Assuming the 360 is the first attack and that neither is at Range 1, that means the two attacks could have been any of:

5 (3+2) and 2 (4-2+0)
4 (3+1) and 3 (4-2+1)
3 (3+0) and 4 (4-2+2)
 
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Steven Redfearn
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Re: phasers
Are type 8s and Upgraded phasers non-continous effects? They have similar wording to gain attack dice when attacking with the primary.
 
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Michael Pantner
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Type 8's and Upgraded Phasers specicfy "when attacking with your primary weapon".
They apply each time you attack with your primary weapon.

Regarding Remata'Klan, the wording is "for all of your attacks" not "for each of your attacks".

I believe that wording is effectively the same as "this round".

Is there a ruling somewhere?
 
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Steven Redfearn
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RE: phasers
pantner wrote:
Type 8's and Upgraded Phasers specicfy "when attacking with your primary weapon".
They apply each time you attack with your primary weapon.

Regarding Remata'Klan, the wording is "for all of your attacks" not "for each of your attacks".

I believe that wording is effectively the same as "this round".

Is there a ruling somewhere?



Then Archer should also grant his bonus die/dice because he states 'when attacking with your primary weapon'.

There is no ruling necessary for Remata because his text is very specific: 'Gain +2 attack dice for all your attacks during the round in which you use this upgrade.
 
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Michael Pantner
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SMDMadCow wrote:
Then Archer should also grant his bonus die/dice because he states 'when attacking with your primary weapon'.


That is different, it specifies you gain +1 dice for each upgrade. The Primary weapon comment is a qualifier to say it doesn't work for Secondary Weapons.

Are you saying Type 8 phasers will only work once per round?

SMDMadCow wrote:
There is no ruling necessary for Remata because his text is very specific: 'Gain +2 attack dice for all your attacks during the round in which you use this upgrade.


It actually isn't. There are 2 ways to take it...

Gain +2 attack dice for all your attacks. ie, including all the attacks you make this round, you gain a total of 2 dice.

or

Gain _2 attack dice for all your attacks. ie, you gain +2 dice for each attack you make.

Are you saying if i had a ship that used Volley of Torpedoes, a Photon Torpedo weapon and then Secondary Torpedo Laucher. Volley fires, triggers photon torps which allows me to fire the secondary launcher, i would gain +6 dice with Remata'Klan?
 
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Steven Redfearn
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pantner wrote:

That is different, it specifies you gain +1 dice for each upgrade. The Primary weapon comment is a qualifier to say it doesn't work for Secondary Weapons.

Are you saying Type 8 phasers will only work once per round?


No, I'm saying that:
wrote:
gain +1 attack die when attacking with your Primary Weapon

is the same as:
wrote:
When attacking with your Primary Weapon, gain +1 attack die

Type 8's say 1, Archer the other - both should qualify under Torney rule 23b.
And after looking at Archer again, he gains the bonus until the end phase, so he'll automatically get his bonus attack dice on every attack he makes with his primary.

pantner wrote:

It actually isn't. There are 2 ways to take it...

Gain +2 attack dice for all your attacks. ie, including all the attacks you make this round, you gain a total of 2 dice.

or

Gain _2 attack dice for all your attacks. ie, you gain +2 dice for each attack you make.

Are you saying if i had a ship that used Volley of Torpedoes, a Photon Torpedo weapon and then Secondary Torpedo Laucher. Volley fires, triggers photon torps which allows me to fire the secondary launcher, i would gain +6 dice with Remata'Klan?


Yes. You will gain a net bonus of 6 attack dice because Remata adds 2 to all 3 your attacks. That's how he works.
This has actually been brought up before, with an answer, if you search the rules forum.
 
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