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Subject: Unowned Track question rss

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Some Guy
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On pg 10, referencing the diagram, its says "...directly connects only to the black player's links. So only the black player can claim that link".

This is really confusing to me. Could I not build from an open city to this town? Or does the black player just have a lock on that unowned track or the whole game?
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Pete Goch
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Read just above that section again:

Quote:
You can only claim an unowned, incomplete link if it either starts at a city or it directly connects to one of your own links.



My emphasis. In other words, if you want to extend an unowned incomplete link that starts in a town you must be connected to that town. You could build from a city to that town (let's say the purple one below it - Scranton) and then upgrade the town so it connects. Then you could extend the incomplete, unowned link A.
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Some Guy
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Thank you for the clarification
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Michael Clarke
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Two things:

1) I'm concerned from the wording of your question that you may not have remembered that an incomplete link is only owned by its original builder until his/her next turn. Then in order to preserve ownership the builder must extend or complete it. If they do not, then they lose ownership. So in the example in the rules, Black would not have a "lock on that unowned track for the whole game" - the black marker would be removed and it would become unowned if Black did not keep on extending it or complete it.

2) Once ownership is lost the incomplete link becomes unowned and can be claimed by someone else. In the example, as TheOneTrueZeke describes, one way of doing this would be first to build your own new link to the town where the incomplete link starts. However, I believe that the sentence quoted by TheOneTrueZeke also permits another way, which is to build legally from somewhere else (i.e. a city or a part of your own existing railway) to connect ("directly") to the open end of the unowned incomplete link. This seems to be the consensus interpretation in (the many!) other posts on this topic.
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Pete Goch
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lliwedd wrote:

However, I believe that the sentence quoted by TheOneTrueZeke also permits another way, which is to build legally from somewhere else (i.e. a city or a part of your own existing railway) to connect ("directly") to the open end of the unowned incomplete link. This seems to be the consensus interpretation in (the many!) other posts on this topic.



Do you happen to know where that particular issue was discussed? Can't find the thread.

It's seems slightly dicey because I am actually extending my link and the unowned link at the same time with the connecting tile. If I ignore the fact that the connecting tile effectively extends both links then it would be legal for me to extend one of my links directly into someone else's owned but incomplete link thus killing the link altogether.
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Snooze Fest
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:

However, I believe that the sentence quoted by TheOneTrueZeke also permits another way, which is to build legally from somewhere else (i.e. a city or a part of your own existing railway) to connect ("directly") to the open end of the unowned incomplete link. This seems to be the consensus interpretation in (the many!) other posts on this topic.



Do you happen to know where that particular issue was discussed? Can't find the thread.

It's seems slightly dicey because I am actually extending my link and the unowned link at the same time with the connecting tile. If I ignore the fact that the connecting tile effectively extends both links then it would be legal for me to extend one of my links directly into someone else's owned but incomplete link thus killing the link altogether.

He's referring specifically to connecting to an unowned link. It is legal to build directly into (and connect to) an unowned link, thereby making it your own. But you may not do the same if that track stub is owned by another player.
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Michael Clarke
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:

However, I believe that the sentence quoted by TheOneTrueZeke also permits another way, which is to build legally from somewhere else (i.e. a city or a part of your own existing railway) to connect ("directly") to the open end of the unowned incomplete link. This seems to be the consensus interpretation in (the many!) other posts on this topic.



Do you happen to know where that particular issue was discussed? Can't find the thread.

It's seems slightly dicey because I am actually extending my link and the unowned link at the same time with the connecting tile. If I ignore the fact that the connecting tile effectively extends both links then it would be legal for me to extend one of my links directly into someone else's owned but incomplete link thus killing the link altogether.


Yes, you are completing an unowned link, but only as a byproduct of completing your own link, and in the process claiming it as yours. This is quite different from extending another player's link as described in your final sentence, which is expressly forbidden in the rules (p.7).

Other posts referencing this interpretation include:
Re: Confusion about Unowned, Incomplete Links and Claiming them,
Re: Question about claiming a track,
Re: Claiming "unowned" track ,
Re: Unowned Links
for starters.

Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...

It seems to me that this is the simplest way to play; it follows the spirit of trackbuilding and does not lead to any networks which contravene the basic trackbuilding principles:
1: Each link can't be owned by more than one person.
2: All owned links must be traceable back to a city through a chain of links owned by the same person.

The alternative approach would mean ruling that you could complete an unowned link by building from one direction but not from the other, which would seem inconsistent and unnecessarily fiddly.
 
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Pete Goch
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lliwedd wrote:


Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...


Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.
 
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Tucker Taylor
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:
Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...

Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.

I don't think that follows at all. If you build a city, it's as though you put neutral track on six (or however many) sides, which could complete a link. If you lay track, it's yours, and a link can't belong to two people.
 
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Grant
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:


Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...


Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.

The rules explicitly state (emphasis mine):
"You are not allowed to build track that extends another player's track."

Extending/completing another players link through placing a city is a completely different matter which in no way overrides the rule quoted above. It isn't specifically covered in the rule book, hence the FAQ entry.
 
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Pete Goch
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JazzFish wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:
Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...

Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.

I don't think that follows at all. If you build a city, it's as though you put neutral track on six (or however many) sides, which could complete a link. If you lay track, it's yours, and a link can't belong to two people.


If I haven't extend the incomplete link with my own track then why do I own it after upgrading the town to a city when the link that is completed is unowned?

No matter how you slice it you wind up with some sort of inconsistency with the original language of the rules.

 
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Pete Goch
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grant5 wrote:

The rules explicitly state (emphasis mine):
"You are not allowed to build track that extends another player's track."


But I'm not. I'm building track that extends one of my links. It just so happens to also connect to another player's incomplete link. Unless, of course, I'm forced to acknowledge that I am both extending my link and the other players link at the same time when I place that final connecting piece of track.

If that's the case then we still have an issue with extending my own link into an unowned, incomplete link that I am not already connected to.

There is a rule stipulating that I cannot extend an incomplete and unowned link unless I am already directly connected to that link. When I extend one of my links into an incomplete and unowned link that I am not otherwise already connected to I am effectively violating that rule. Why? It's exactly the same as extending a link into an owned, incomplete link. By laying that connecting tile I'm extending both my link and the other player's link.
 
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Grant
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
JazzFish wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:
Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...

Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.

I don't think that follows at all. If you build a city, it's as though you put neutral track on six (or however many) sides, which could complete a link. If you lay track, it's yours, and a link can't belong to two people.


If I haven't extend the incomplete link with my own track then why do I own it after upgrading the town to a city when the link that is completed is unowned?

Because the FAQ tells you that you do.

Quote:
No matter how you slice it you wind up with some sort of inconsistency with the original language of the rules.

What is inconsistent? The original rules are just silent on the issue of what happens to a link you don't own which you complete by building a city.

(edit to consolidate replies)
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
grant5 wrote:

The rules explicitly state (emphasis mine):
"You are not allowed to build track that extends another player's track."


But I'm not. I'm building track that extends one of my links.

placing a city is NOT the same as building track. Why are you trying to apply the rules of building track to placing a city?

Quote:
It just so happens to also connect to another player's incomplete link.

That's the crux of my issue. There is a rule stipulating that I cannot extend an incomplete and unowned link unless I am already directly connected to that link. When I extend one of my links into an incomplete and unowned link that I am not otherwise already connected to I am effectively violating that rule.

You are talking about extending your link due to the placing of a city, right? The rules governing that are just absent from the rule book. It is not covered by the rules for building track.
 
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Pete Goch
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grant5 wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
JazzFish wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
lliwedd wrote:
Also this entry in the official FAQ, while not addressing exactly the same situation, is completely consistent with it in allowing building into an unowned link from the other side: https://www.mayfairgames.com/faq/unowned-incomplete-link-sto...

Taking that as a precedent I can extend one of my links into another player's incomplete link but I wind up completing that link for the other player.

I don't think that follows at all. If you build a city, it's as though you put neutral track on six (or however many) sides, which could complete a link. If you lay track, it's yours, and a link can't belong to two people.


If I haven't extend the incomplete link with my own track then why do I own it after upgrading the town to a city when the link that is completed is unowned?

Because the FAQ tells you that you do.

Quote:
No matter how you slice it you wind up with some sort of inconsistency with the original language of the rules.

What is inconsistent? The original rules are just silent on the issue of what happens to a link you don't own which you complete by building a city.


They tell you that you complete a link by extending it with your track.

The FAQ wrote:
Yes. You have “extended” the track to a city, so the track is yours.


The FAQ as written is consistent with extending a link with your track.
 
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Pete Goch
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I suppose you could define the order in which building, creating connections and making extensions takes place to clear things up.

When you extend your track things happen in this order -

1. You extend your track
2. You connect to other, existing incomplete track
3. You extend that other, existing incomplete track
4. If that existing track is unowned it is legal for you to extend it because you have already connected to it in step (2)
5. If that existing incomplete track is owned there is no provision for connecting to it and you are explicitly prohibited from extending it at all so the build is not legal.
 
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