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Vampire Hunters» Forums » General

Subject: Panic mechanic?? creators... thx rss

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chang chang

Connecticut
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Hi DGG..
I`m posting this in hope that Tony sees this (and answers ), I tend to missed him in the comments section at KS.

With the 1st KS I felt in love with the panic mechanics, as well as with the vampires moving closer and closer as you miss to hit.
I was wondering, why was it remove? Some said that it was too hard and it couldn't be balance without being frustrated. Was that it? wouldn't be possible to introduce it again as a "challenging difficulty" "advance rule" of sort?

I`m mainly curious, but I cant denied that what kept me thinking of this game was that. All the new mechanics and gameplay sound superb nevertheless, but I kind of knew I was coming back to this because that mechanic, hence I was a little sad when I noticed it was not longer part of the game.

Thanks for your attention and discussion / input on the topic

chang
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Tony At DGG
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I'm getting a coffee ... I'll be back.
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Ricky W
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Oh, a separate thread about it!

Then I'll have to quote myself:

carraway0877 wrote:
Although I sadly don't see it happen, because it seems to have been removed since the canceled KS campaign...

I'd like to see a panic/adrenaline mechanic!

Perhaps something like
Quote:
If enemies in line of sight exceeds (faith + mind) make a (faith + mind) test (3+).
If you fail substract one die from all attacks and moves must be made shortest way towards the entry/exit until end of turn.
If you succeed with a natural 6 you feel an adrenaline rush and get one additional attack die for all attacks until end of turn.


 
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chang chang

Connecticut
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Tony at DGgames US wrote:
I'm getting a coffee ... I'll be back.


cool, would be happy to read ur opinion / views on this when I wake up

and of course I understand that the panic tracker was remove from the hunter card; so OF COURSE I don't expect that to be added. But small circle trackers.. a simple way to track with D10 (if I remember the panic mech well).. or just include the rules / playtest.. we would do the rest. I would really love this mechanic back

@ricky yes I agree, is probably unlikely, but god I would LOVE this to come back. and sorry, didn't noticed this topic was being discussed somewhere else.
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Jay Rey
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If you want it this way make it yourself as an variant. It shouldn't be a problem after all. Don't impose changes for anyone else who is happy with the game as it is right now.

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Tony At DGG
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I'll give you an answer to slightly different question, "What is the design philosophy behind VH?".

We started with the central ideas that Vampire Hunters should be thematic, strategic, and fun to play.

Thematic: Obviously, the art plays a part here, but beauty is only skin deep. We wanted the game play to reflect the theme too. We believe we have many elements that capture the lore in general or individual book/movie scenes specifically. Who can’t remember seeing the hero desperately tearing a curtain from a window and letting sunlight burn his enemy? For me, it was a Hammer Dracula movie and I was about 10. Here are some of those elements:

• Night and Day and its many effects on the game.
• The Awakening.
• The sense of urgency caused by the clock.
• Combination Attacks.
• Terror Events.
• Elder Influence.
• The spawning system and the fog of war.
• The Tunnels.

In the game, you will not be walking from room to room, killing vampire shaped minis. The game itself feels like a Vampire movie or story.

Fun: Okay, everyone says this, so I’ll be specific. We want you immersed in the game; opening the rulebook, looking at tables, doing percentage calculations are all things that break that immersion. We want you living the Vampire Hunter life for 90 minutes.

One way to keep your nose out of the rulebook would be to create very simple rules. Walk, kill, search. You can remember those rules. But look at the list of thematic mechanics. This is not a walk, kill, search game. So we have another plan:

Make the rules thematic. You can remember that sunlight kills the vampires in the room, because it seems like it should be part of the game.

Make each individual rule simple. Yes, combat could have included an opposed dice roll for defense. It could have a roll to see the body part that was hit. There could be body part specific armor. But would that baggage make it a better game? It is a vampire hunting board game, not a hand to hand combat sim. Keep it simple.

Put hints on the components. If you forget The Awakening, it will really affect the game and I know I forget to apply rules all the time. I know the rule, I just forget to do it. So “The Awakening” is written right there on the clock. You do not need to remember which turn it happens, you do not even need to remember it happens at all. When you move the current round marker on the clock, you’ll get a reminder.

Strategic: Okay, vampire hunters is not chess. But you have to think about the game. You cannot walk around as a pack, rolling dice: the time limit will make you lose. The “play in any order” mechanic really gives you the option to co-operate. You need a plan and then you’ll need plan B, when a terror event makes a vampire knock you through the floor, into the tunnels, miles from where you want to be.

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chang chang

Connecticut
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kompan wrote:

If you want it this way make it yourself as an variant. It shouldn't be a problem after all. Don't impose changes for anyone else who is happy with the game as it is right now.



lol lol
1. im asking why it was remove. im curious, at the least it would make think how to impliment if i want to. knowing what went wrong and the line of thoughts
2. imposing?? lol "advance rules" "alternative rules" ... u dont want to use it, you dont. It doesnt affect the core mechanics. Why asking for it to be included? simple, they worked on it for around 1 year; even the skeleton would be useful
3. please read that my post ask "if possible" and by no mean ask to remove the current mechanuc just add an alternative version.

at the end i think is unlikely it would be added, specially if after using it for close to 1 year in playtesting and after the 1st KS they got feedback that it was too complicated (which is what i think happened) but learning the line of thoughs from the creator and using the original rules as the skeleton would be an intersted conversation / way to do a houserule.

thank you for ur advice of houseruling it though
 
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chang chang

Connecticut
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oops..
@tony thanks! i see why it was remove. 2 last question, beside the thematics and too many stuff to temember or calculate.. did the game ever felt too hard / frustrated to play with panic? did it feel like it broke the game, making either really hard / imposible to win or just too random based on too many rolls? thx

thanks again and thx for my 1st vamp game
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Bill Hartman
United States
Bishopville
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I get where you are coming from chang. For me, the sweet spot is to keep it deep enough to be interesting, but like Tony said not having to reference tables and rules constantly. That is tough to pull off. Simplify too much, the game becomes a drag. Go too deep, and risk it being frustrating.

I love Mage Knight. I wish I could get it to the table more often so I could get better at it. But all the setup, rules, etc makes it too long for what I usually have available (and with my wife's demon cats, I can't leave anything out on the table overnight or it will be a chewed/broken mess).

I still pull MK out from time to time, and play a cooperative scenario with my daughter, but we have to have a 3+ hour block available plus a rules refresher each time.

For Vampire Hunters, it looks like they took a great thematic approach to the gameplay, while not bogging it down in excessive rules. I've been impressed with what I have seen. Love the clock ticking away, the elder influence, combos, busting open a window for sunlight or dragging a vamp outside with harpoon gun.

I think anything more than they have now would be best suited for a tabletop miniature game (like Malifaux or Warhammer, etc) or, like you said, maybe an advanced variant rule/houserule. Maybe you could make a variant after release and post it here?
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Tony At DGG
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There are a few optional rules, another game mode and campaign details that will be in the rule book.

At the moment, we are letting people absorb the core co-op rules.

(For example, the extractor is an optional rule. Skip it on day 1, but once you use it, you will never play without it. Pete rocks!)
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Ricky W
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Imho a panic mechanic is very vampire thematic. So rules about panic feel natural and suitable, thus some simple rules about it would stick in the brain very easily.

Additionally it would be a real outstanding criteria in the dungeon crawl market.

I recommend thinking it over again. If wanted I think about it too and make some more suggestions.

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You may call me
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keep in mind that the elder influence cards function like panic in a way. When you face an elder vampire you have to draw a card and make a skill check or else you suffer the negative effect. There's an example in an update on KS.
 
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Ricky W
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Logus Vile wrote:
keep in mind that the elder influence cards function like panic in a way. When you face an elder vampire you have to draw a card and make a skill check or else you suffer the negative effect. There's an example in an update on KS.

I always saw elder influence as psychic powers intruding in the hunters' heads.

I still want a mechanic to reflect facing a superiority of horrible creatures.

I hoped for a play tested out of the box solution from the designers, but it they don't do it I'll find a cool house rule for sure!

 
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chang chang

Connecticut
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FunkyFlyChicken wrote:
I get where you are coming from chang. For me, the sweet spot is to keep it deep enough to be interesting, but like Tony said not having to reference tables and rules constantly. That is tough to pull off. Simplify too much, the game becomes a drag. Go too deep, and risk it being frustrating.


I love Mage Knight. I wish I could get it to the table more often so I could get better at it. But all the setup, rules, etc makes it too long for what I usually have available (and with my wife's demon cats, I can't leave anything out on the table overnight or it will be a chewed/broken mess).

I still pull MK out from time to time, and play a cooperative scenario with my daughter, but we have to have a 3+ hour block available plus a rules refresher each time.

For Vampire Hunters, it looks like they took a great thematic approach to the gameplay, while not bogging it down in excessive rules. I've been impressed with what I have seen. Love the clock ticking away, the elder influence, combos, busting open a window for sunlight or dragging a vamp outside with harpoon gun.


And those are things that I understand.. I was afraid that the game broke with the panic rule, but it seems it was just a streamliner decision. (at least that is the impression @Tony is giving me) And as you say, so far the things I have read in the new rulebook beta sound terrific the combo and the "turned" mechanic that someone referred to are superb

btw I LOVE Magic Knight, glad I don't have demon cats. me and my bf just leave some game on the gaming room and go back to them when we can. I imaging that Dugeon Crusaders is going to stay up for at least 3 nights LOL

FunkyFlyChicken wrote:
.... or, like you said, maybe an advanced variant rule/houserule. Maybe you could make a variant after release and post it here?


you can count with me houserule that in.. need to read and read the rulebook so I can integrate them well but happening 100%

BTW ur nick name here LOL LOL LOL
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