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Subject: Swordmaster improvement rss

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Gutripper
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Given how poor Swordmaster is (and my favourite sculpt Azure starts w that skill!) i thought could it not be tweaked slightly to make it a bit more useful?

I was thinking of houseruling that swordmaster allows dual wielding of any two swordclasses in any combination.

Is that too powerful or should it be restricted to the 'basic' swordtypes short, standard, great, dagger etc?
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Maybe try excluding magic swords at first? The magic swords don't necessarily play thematically into swordmaster so it could be easy to explain them out. If it's still too weak then reconsider. We'll probably try this as well to give swordmaster some bite.

As written is dual weilding the great sword the only thing it's good for? Or are there others in that category? I don't recall.
 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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There is only the Great Sword and the Bastard Sword (in Wulfsburg).
Both are only 2 times in the deck. Everything else is either Dual Wield or exists only once if you don't own 2 sets of Wulfsburg.
 
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Guillermo Ferrer
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Gutripper wrote:
Given how poor Swordmaster is (and my favourite sculpt Azure starts w that skill!) i thought could it not be tweaked slightly to make it a bit more useful?

I was thinking of houseruling that swordmaster allows dual wielding of any two swordclasses in any combination.

Is that too powerful or should it be restricted to the 'basic' swordtypes short, standard, great, dagger etc?


The houserule that i've got in my mind, and admit I haven't tried it yet, it's very similar to yours:

Swordmaster allows dual wielding of the types: short sword, sword, great sword and bastard sword (I think this last one's damage is 2, so first roll dices for the weapon with damage 1 and then roll dices for the weapon of damage 2, but all in the same attack).

As I haven't tested it, I don't know if it's a good idea to add daggers (there are 4 of them, maybe too much probability), or to add unique magic swords (I think they are powerful enought on its own) to the formula.

I don't know if my fellas will agree, but of course Swordmaster needs something to spice it up.
 
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Gutripper
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I think it should be fair to do this given how most standard sword types individually are worse than a dual greatsword combo

Can't see too much harm in allowing daggers, not sure about magic swords though as you say. If he's a 'swordmaster' than why not playtest and see if it's too good?

Seems strange that he'd need to sheathe his magic sword in preference for two vanilla sword types
 
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Guillermo Ferrer
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Gutripper wrote:
Can't see too much harm in allowing daggers, not sure about magic swords though as you say. If he's a 'swordmaster' than why not playtest and see if it's too good?


Yeah, maybe there are four of them, but you don't get too much power so I think it could work

Gutripper wrote:
Seems strange that he'd need to sheathe his magic sword in preference for two vanilla sword types


Looking the weapons now... the problem comes with the fatties and abominations, when you need more than "1 damage"...

Let's supose you get two "bastard sword" with "damage 2", so it's obvious your lucky day!!! Even here, let's compare with some magic weapons: Axe of Carnage it's exactly the same, but just with one hand. Earthquake Hammer has -1dice but -1accuracy demand, some roll effects (maybe 3damage), in one hand, so it's definitely a different/better? option

Dragon Fire Blade or Flaming Great Sword have advantage against aboms, so they are different options for different situations also. And so...

The thing is that in Zombicide, normally you won't have the chance to choose between this amazing weapons, and that's why it's a big game!!
 
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M H
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I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking at allowing someone with two melee weapons equipped to use the number of dice, accuracy, and damage of either weapon they want if they have Swordmaster.

Sword and Greatsword? 5 dice to hit, 4+ to hit, 2 damage.

Edit: still do 1 damage. I don't maths good.
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Chuck Hurd
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hoodwink99 wrote:
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking at allowing someone with two melee weapons equipped to use the number of dice, accuracy, and damage of either weapon they want if they have Swordmaster.

Sword and Greatsword? 5 dice to hit, 4+ to hit, 2 damage.

That's an interesting take. Choose the attributes you want from the two weapons. So you don't stack them but create a single weapon so to speak which is the best of what both weapons offer. Interesting.
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I feel that any replacement for the Swordmaster skill should be extremely simple, just as all the other skills. Allowing to wield two different weapons and use them with different stats, for example, is not going to work.

Out of my head, there are various very simple bonuses sword master could provide, lets stick to effects related to dual wielding:

- Dual wielding provides +1 to die roll (i.e. improves accuracy).
- Dual wielding provides +1 damage.
- You can dual wield any two melee weapons for each attack it counts as if you had two identical ones equipped of one of them.
- Same as the last, but it also works with the two swords that cannot be dual wielded.
- etc. pp.

 
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Guillermo Ferrer
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It's nice to change my mind through yours

I agree, the hability has to be simple, so I think that to combine any melee weapon it's the better option.

But trying to develope my idea, attacking with two weapons separately in a single action could be overpowering, because I'm doubling my attack capability. I liked the realistic idea of using both hands, but I think it's too much, so finally I think this is a better option:

hoodwink99 wrote:
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking at allowing someone with two melee weapons equipped to use the number of dice, accuracy, and damage of either weapon they want if they have Swordmaster.

Sword and Greatsword? 5 dice to hit, 4+ to hit, 2 damage.


Taking into account that you were refering to Bastard Sword (damage 2), instead of Greatsword (damage 1), right? I mean, you are choosing, not suming, right?
 
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M H
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mhorin11 wrote:
It's nice to change my mind through yours

I agree, the hability has to be simple, so I think that to combine any melee weapon it's the better option.

But trying to develope my idea, attacking with two weapons separately in a single action could be overpowering, because I'm doubling my attack capability. I liked the realistic idea of using both hands, but I think it's too much, so finally I think this is a better option:

hoodwink99 wrote:
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm looking at allowing someone with two melee weapons equipped to use the number of dice, accuracy, and damage of either weapon they want if they have Swordmaster.

Sword and Greatsword? 5 dice to hit, 4+ to hit, 2 damage.


Taking into account that you were refering to Bastard Sword (damage 2), instead of Greatsword (damage 1), right? I mean, you are choosing, not suming, right?


Yeah I goofed. For some reason I was thinking Sword had 2 damage but it has 2 dice to roll. But you get my drift lol.

For a cleaner definition,

Swordmaster: When a survivor with Swordmaster makes an attack action with an equipped melee weapon, he may substitute one attribute (number of dice, accuracy, or damage) from that same weapon with the matching attribute from a second equipped melee weapon.

I'm wording it this way to prevent adding a dagger or other special abilities from items as a 3rd weapon, but also to prevent stacking magic item abilities (Earthquake Hammer and Axe of Carnage for example). You are only attacking with a single weapon but both are used to facilitate the outcome for terms of number of weapons used in the action.
 
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Carlos Gesser
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What about limit it only to weapons with the same accuracy and damage, and playing with the number of dice from both?
It is simple, more useful, and not extremely overpowered.
 
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M H
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cegesser wrote:
What about limit it only to weapons with the same accuracy and damage, and playing with the number of dice from both?
It is simple, more useful, and not extremely overpowered.


There are relatively few cards with the same accuracy and damage. It wouldn't really make it much more useful than it already is in its current form.
 
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Gutripper
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I dont see the big issue with 'dual wielding' two swords of different types. If you have two sets of dice (and the KS comes w red and the black) you roll one set for one and the other for the second if they have different to hit roll or damage
 
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Luke Jacobs
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Here's a simple one I use.

Swordmaster lets a character dual wield any two "sword" cards. When making an attack, choose one and treat the other as a dagger. I.e. it gives plus 1 die to the other weapon.
 
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M H
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The one thing I'd steer clear of is allowing it to only work for a class of weapon (i.e. swords). The game is not set up for identifying different classes of weapons other than melee, ranged, and magic - with the exception of bolts and arrows. It gets very muddy and ambiguous when you try to break down the items into swords or whatever other class.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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hoodwink99 wrote:
The one thing I'd steer clear of is allowing it to only work for a class of weapon (i.e. swords). The game is not set up for identifying different classes of weapons other than melee, ranged, and magic - with the exception of bolts and arrows. It gets very muddy and ambiguous when you try to break down the items into swords or whatever other class.

I think the idea though is to keep it thematic to its name. So it's not too thematic to Swordmaster to include hammers and axes, etc.
 
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Even more easy options I would find interesting enough:

- +1 die OR +1 to die roll while dual wielding (chosen on attack)
- +1 die, +1 to die roll OR +1 damage while dual wielding.
- You can dual wield any two melee weapons (that can be dual-wielded) with the sum of dice of the weapons and the lowest accuracy and highest damage from either weapon.

There are many, many very easy ways to do this, none of which requires throwing two separate sets of dice, etc.

Again, I stick to dual wielding, since this seems to be the original intend. Swordmaster should then either make using swords more effective or (maybe closer to the original intend) allow you to use more weapons for dual wielding.

E.g., dual wielding a sword with a hammer: 3 dice, 4+ accuracy, 2 damage

Edit: One has to take care not to make it too good, though.
My current impression is that dual wielding was restricted to the same weapon to avoid making the rules complicated (i.e. have separate throws, etc.) and for balancing reasons.

One could allow dual wielding in general and keep it simple by just saying that the dice are added and one takes the lower stat for accuracy and damage. I am not sure if this would make dual wielding too good, early on...

Swordmaster could then just mean to take the better values for accuracy and damage (or one of them, again, options are endless here :-))

Edit 2: The dagger makes things a bit complicated though... If you allow to dual wield a dagger with another weapon, you immediately go up to three dice.

Maybe sword master should allow just that: You can dual wield any two melee weapons (that have the dual wield symbol), add the dice, take the lower stats, but also benefit from both weapons effects.

In the beginning of the game you can dual wield sword and hammer, just to have two dice per action; you will still need to swing the hammer itself to kill fatties. Dual wielding a hammer with a dagger would give you three dice, but still only one damage. Attacking with a hammer, supported by an equipped dagger, gives you two dice, but with 2 damage (as before).
You can dual wield a sword and a short sword for three dice, etc. pp.

Means a sword master is much more flexible with dual wielding, but not that overpowered.
 
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Gutripper
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cityofsolitude wrote:


Maybe sword master should allow just that: You can dual wield any two melee weapons (that have the dual wield symbol), add the dice, take the lower stats, but also benefit from both weapons effects.




What about the great sword or bastard sword? - the original skill unchanged basically allows you to dual wield two greatswords or two bastard swords despite them not having dual wield symbol. That's all but that should at least not be lost I think.

Given that Great/Bastard swords are better than normal and short swords, being able to dual wield two G. Swords for example is quite strong and optimal over a theoretical dual wielding of a great sword and a short sword. However the versatility of being able to do so until you find two great swords (as finding two of them is unlikely) improves the skill a bit, versus the current state.

If rolling two sets of dice seems too mess up the current simplicity a bit (and I can agree a bit too that), you could also play it as an improved dagger type effect

- "If equipped with the two melee weapons with the word 'sword' in them apply +2 dice to the roll of the primary sword used"

...or something like that ie other swords give +2 instead of +1 like a dagger (thematically the +1 dagger comes from essentially dual wielding the dagger w another melee weapon, in this case you do the same with two swords but apply +2 as swords are better than daggers...). This way however there is no distinction between using a short sword w a great sword or a bastard sword with a great sword, but it's definitely simpler.

 
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The problem with opening up the great/bastard swords for dual wielding, in combination with any idea that allows to wield two different weapons, is that you can then also dual wield magic weapons, where no second copy exists.

And if you instead leave dual wielding as is is (two identical copies), but improve dual wielding for a swordmaster, you also improve dual wielding great/bastard swords!

This is why I moved away from "can dual wield anything (even if it normally takes two hands to wield)" (which was a bit cooler in modern Zombicide?) to "can dual wield anything (no matter if it matches or not)". This incidentally also makes more sense to me, since sword mastery does not give you the inhuman strength to wield such weapons in one hand...

 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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cityofsolitude wrote:
[...]
This incidentally also makes more sense to me, since sword mastery does not give you the inhuman strength to wield such weapons in one hand...

That's exactly what it's supposed to do in the Game Rules.

The thing why we want it changed is it's to weak a skill, because you first have to find both Great or Bastard Swords.
In a Deck with all Base game and Wulfsburg cards thats too rare.

Btw @this thread please write +1 to dice roll: X and +1 die: X, it's the way the skills are written in the rulebook and it makes them a lot easier to read and differentiate when you include the c

My take would probably be:
You can dual wield any two melee weapons. (Maybe restrict it to "swords")
Add the dice together.
If both damage and accuracy are different: Choose once the better and once the worse option.
If just the damage or are different you have to choose the worse.

Dual wielding a Bastard and a Great Sword could be 7 Dice,5+,str 2 or 7 dice, 4+, str 1

Dual wielding Great Sword and Sword would be 7 Dice, 5+, str 1.

I'm not sure if this is balanced, but its a simple way to improve Swordmaster without having to roll to times etc.
 
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Jamal khurshid
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How my group uses it:

Swordmaster: allows you the following 2:

1: Able to dual wield similar type of melee weapons even if it does not have dual wield sign.( so allows you to dual wield 2 bastard swords or 2 great swords) the same as in the Rules.
2: Parry: if dual wielding you have a saving throw of 5+ if armor is equipped reroll armor save once.

the parry is not as strong as shield which is 4+ save. this allowed clovis and sylvia to be melee centric characters who can compete with other character that use range + rerolls due to items.
( we dont use the other KS characters. we only use the main game+ wulfsburg + hero 1 characters)

I've tried many variants for Swordmaster
1:treat any other melee weapon as a dagger. gives you +1 die. this stopped dagger being any good. there are 4 normal daggers and one special dagger(wulfsburg) in the deck we use.

2:+1 die melee if dual wielding: this we felt fought too much with skills that the character gets as they level up. when we tested we have clovis rolling 12 dice when dual wielding 2 great swords. we didnt like it.

3: +1 to dice roll melee if dual wielding: clashes with character skills again for the characters that have swordmaster.

So in the end when we went for dual wield+parry option. We all like it and it made sense to us.
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Fitz Rurisk
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MusibatKhan wrote:
How my group uses it:

Swordmaster: allows you the following 2:

1: Able to dual wield similar type of melee weapons even if it does not have dual wield sign.( so allows you to dual wield 2 bastard swords or 2 great swords) the same as in the Rules.
2: Parry: if dual wielding you have a saving throw of 5+ if armor is equipped reroll armor save once.

I definitely like your houserule, adding a defence aspect, I'll try it in my next game
 
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Tomas Uhlir
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How about this:

Swordmaster

You can use two different Melee weapons, both with a Dual symbol, in the following way: Roll separately for both of them and choose which one to use.
(Two identical weapons with the Dual symbol work as normal.)


- This way would you be able to use the Swordmaster Skill quite easily. It shouldn't be difficult to find two different Dual Melee weapons.
- It's quite useful but not too strong. Mostly works as a bit better reroll.
 
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uhlik wrote:
How about this:

Swordmaster

You can use two different Melee weapons, both with a Dual symbol, in the following way: Roll separately for both of them and choose which one to use.
(Two identical weapons with the Dual symbol work as normal.)


- This way would you be able to use the Swordmaster Skill quite easily. It shouldn't be difficult to find two different Dual Melee weapons.
- It's quite useful but not too strong. Mostly works as a bit better reroll.


That is certainly an interesting idea, but it contradicts the overall design principle that an action should just require one simple roll. They have gone through a lot of effort to ensure this and is something they stressed a lot when presenting massive darkness
 
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