$15.00
$20.00
$30.00
$5.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Heros: Draw 5 or All? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bit Blitz
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
We've only played 3 games so far, and are still using the "Draw 5" heroes rule. I'd like to hear the experience from those who use the experienced "all heroes available" rule.

Is there a rush for particular heroes?

What do the more experienced players think?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Rubinstein

Long Beach
California
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm still not sure which I prefer. I've played once each way. In theory, I like the "draw 5" system better, as I really dislike it when games options are too frontloaded & overwhelming. However, I also see how the "draw 5" can lead to just plain bad luck and make your chosen path to victory nearly impossible if the heroes you need don't come up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Ryan
United States
Westminster
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have now played MN:E twice (and I am flipping over it!).
We have only played with five available tiles at the beginning of the rounds.

After the last game I started to see some very cool combos of tiles. My first thought was that it would be great to have them all available so one could go for these combos right out of the gate.

But now I have completely changed my mind. Here is the issue to me. In a game like Kemet where all 470 tiles are there from the beginning, I have seen the trend in our gaming group to mostly go for the well-worn and effective combos of tiles. I don't like it. For the guys who grok the combos, they simply execute. The rest of us play by the seat of our pants, and usually get whipped. I don't have the time to figure out what works best with what.

In MN:E having all the tiles out could encourage this kind of play. With only 5 available, it forces one to be creative and make do with what's available on the fly. Also (and your group might be different) having all the tiles out would really slow the game down. (I can see my gaming buddies all leaning out over the tile board with the cheat-sheet in hand, taking forever to decide what to do...) And one of the beauties of this game is the brisk pace. I love that. So unless someone can make a very compelling case for having them all out, having only five seems to be much better.
23 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Townshend
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
^ What Kevin said.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moose Detective
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I've played like 4-5 games at various player counts all with just 5 heroes. I don't particularly have a desire to play with all 18?

Games like Kemet irk me when I see the same player always start with the same pyramid levels and go for the same tiles. There'd be 6 versions of that in MNE because of starting placement/resources/powers but I could still see people falling into a specific rut if everything was available.

The only 5 available forces people to try new strategies or adjust to other strategies at the table in addition to being easier to grok for new players.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Van Wagoner
United States
Bluffton
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
we now play that the avail tiles are the number of players, +2 (6 in a 4-player game, etc.)...and another is flipped whenever one is purchased...and it seems to work great...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Gulbranson
United States
Lindstrom
Minnesota
flag msg tools
I've played 10 games now from 3-5 players with both variations of "draw 5" and "all available". My group felt the former was too little and the latter was too many. So we made a house rule and we flip 8, filling the bottom row on the board, we also only flip new heroes/wonders after the build phase has ended. This for me has by far been the best option, giving you enough options to buy something that works for you, but not too many that you can buy the same heroes/wonders every game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Ryan
United States
Westminster
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
John and John,
I kinda like the idea of a few more tiles being offered, but there seems to be a slight issue with it. It dilutes the "power" of the culture leader. One of the perks of that advantage is to build first, of course, so the fewer the tiles, the more important it is. I think this advantage is definitely compromised when you flip over another tile whenever one is built. Then there is no edge at all (for buying tiles) to being the Culture Leader, because everyone has the same number from which to choose. In fact, as I think about it, turning over another tile is pretty bad for the Culture Leader. There might be a great tile out, and he gets it. But what if the next tile out is the best one of all? Then the Culture Leader really is disadvantaged. Yes, it depends on the luck of the draw, but why make it possible for this to happen?

Again, this dilutes the power for building tiles only. There is still a pretty good edge for building units last on the board to react to opponents's builds. And notice, by the way, how those two "powers" are at odds with each other? Build first, get the plum tile. But build first and you cannot react to a military build-up. So the Culture Leader advantage is already attenuated. This is a brilliant game.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aron R
United States
Ashburn
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You could always flip over new H/W tiles at the beginning of a new round, to get you back up to the limit. That way the Culture Leader still has an advantage in going first (if they choose to do so).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Snow
United States
New York City
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
goo The rules do say to flip new ones over at the end of each Build Phase, which takes care of the problem you envision of weakening the leader by flipping new ones over right away.

So far we favor flipping only the five. If we later introduce all of the other leaders as well with the Atlas Legendary Cities expansions, we will probably keep doing so, as that would make things even more confusing if we were faced with that many at once. And having even more leaders showing up by fives will keep the flow more adventurous than calculating!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thierry Mattray
France
Nantes
flag msg tools
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
nat whilk wrote:
John and John,
I kinda like the idea of a few more tiles being offered, but there seems to be a slight issue with it. It dilutes the "power" of the culture leader.


Don't forget the designer's initial rule is to have all H&M available.
And the balancing of the game was made with this rule.

So it should be better to say that '5 tiles only' rule adds power to the cultural leader.
But anyway i don't think so : yes, building first allow you to choose a H&M tile before other players, but building last is great too, as it allow you to fix your choices depending of opponents decisions.
And choosing H&M with all available is often more efficient because you can choose powerful combos you will not find often with only five tiles available at a time, so it make the cultural leader power more efficient.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Townshend
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
tontione wrote:
Don't forget the designer's initial rule is to have all H&M available.
And the balancing of the game was made with this rule.


Thanks for your input, Thierry.

I can see how a regular Mare Nostrum gaming group might do well with all 17, but I can't visualize how it's balanced in any instance in which there is even one new, or less experienced, player.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Snow
United States
New York City
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If one plays Kemet, with all of the power tiles right out there in the beginning, one has the kinds of problems mentioned above. I can see eventually playing MNE with them all out, but not until the players are more experienced. And perhaps not even until the other H/Ws from the Atlantis, KS Exclusives/Promos, and the three Legendary City modules have been tried and understood.

My gang, even after 10 plays, is certainly not there yet.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Schroeder

Dubuque
Iowa
msg tools
mbmb
We played with the flip 5 rule for only the first game. We prefer flipping all tiles up for two reasons at the start of game:

1. This game is very deterministic outside of combat and it has seemed to our group that certain race/tile combinations have very good synergy. Why would we want a race to randomly get a good pairing based on luck of the draw when others do not? Especially when this game has very little randomness already. I absolutely love that this game developed a system without card drawing (extreme random variability) and still kept things interesting. It's possible if things get stale, we might change up to only revealing an amount of cards equivalent to player count per round, but this has not happened yet (and maybe never will).

2. Our group (atm) doesn't have anyone suffering from AP, so we don't have down time from someone trying to over-analyze the outcome of every available hero/wonder. I specifically avoid playing this type of game with people suffering from AP. If your group has this problem, flipping up all the tiles is probably a bad idea.

Overall, while I'm not against the flipping per round rule, we definitely prefer having all available at the present time.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thierry Mattray
France
Nantes
flag msg tools
publisher
mbmbmbmbmb
Drammattex wrote:

I can see how a regular Mare Nostrum gaming group might do well with all 17, but I can't visualize how it's balanced in any instance in which there is even one new, or less experienced, player.


When i talk about balancing, i think of heroes powers and 4 goals difficulty.
But it's clear that experienced players will always beat newbies.
If you want to (partially) equalize chances between experienced and new players, i agree the 5 Heroes rule will help you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew DeGoey
msg tools
The next time I play with the group I first played it with, I plan to run the game with all heroes out, and one or more of the expansions thrown in. I feel it really depends on whom you're playing with, and for my usual group I definitely think we need to have more options and strategy available from the outset. Granted it was our first time, but the game ended in either the fourth or fifth round because the Carthaginian player was able to build the pyramids, so this is why I feel having all the heroes out and some of the expansions for bonus cards would be good for my group: it'll increase the chances people take heroes that can help them move up the leader tracks to prevent one player from running train on everyone else.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pas L
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
No good will come of this, mark my words!
badge
mbmb
One of my main dislikes about Kemet are the reasons discussed above (along with no real area control elements) so I am absolutely in the draw 5 camp.

I don't agree that with experienced players having them all drawn makes a big difference either, as if everyone is so experienced they will know what to do to balance out the Hero draw being better for one player than the others.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Shone
Australia
Glenroy
Victoria
flag msg tools
Having played the original version several times, and using the draw 5 rule there, I'll stick with that in the new version (whenever it finally arrives in Australia - 2017 perhaps?)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.