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Zombicide: Black Plague» Forums » Rules

Subject: Spawn zone and spawn token clarification rss

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toof fou
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Hello
Are spawn zone and spawn token equivalent ?

One board zone with two spawn token inside it is representing:

A- one spawn zone as a whole that will trigger one zombi card draw at the end of zombi phase

B- a board zone with two spawn zone that will triggers two zombi card draws one after another ?

Nothing in rules allows to get rid of this ambiguity !

Thank you for your help !

Edit: trying to be clearer.
A spawn zone is:
A- a spawn token.
B- a board zone with whatever number spawn token within it ?
 
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Max Maloney
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Every spawn token will generate a card in every zombie phase. So two tokens in one zone will generate two cards worth of zombie spawns.

A zone with spawn tokens is a spawn zone, regardless of how many tokens are present.
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toof fou
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This is still ambigous regarding necromancer now Rules says remove a spawn zone. Does it mean i should remove all tokens from a spawn zone ?

Edit: answer here https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1494262/spawn-zone-vs-spawn...

Thank you.

French rule clearly says remove one token when killing necro. English rule is ambigous.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The rules are highly ambiguous and use the terms interchangeably in confusing ways. Most of the time, you have to figure out which is meant using common sense, but err on the side of individual tokens. So when a Necromancer is defeated, remove a single token from the board.

There are very few effects that really refer to the Zone alone. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is that a Necromancer ignores all the tokens in its starting Zone when determining where it will go to (unless all tokens are in one Zone).
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toof fou
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Clipper wrote:
The rules are highly ambiguous and use the terms interchangeably in confusing ways. Most of the time, you have to figure out which is meant using common sense, but err on the side of individual tokens. So when a Necromancer is defeated, remove a single token from the board.

There are very few effects that really refer to the Zone alone. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is that a Necromancer ignores all the tokens in its starting Zone when determining where it will go to (unless all tokens are in one Zone).


The weirdest thing is that nowhere it is said do draw a card per token !
We can only deduce it with the rules for 7 and more players !
 
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Chuck Hurd
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toofou wrote:
We can only deduce it with the rules for 7 and more players !

This is exactly where we figured it out too. The rules are very careless.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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I really don't see where you are seeing ambiguity. Page 29 under Necromancers explains how to spawn for Necromancer spawn points, which is the only way to get more than one spawn point into a zone.
 
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toof fou
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longagoigo wrote:
I really don't see where you are seeing ambiguity. Page 29 under Necromancers explains how to spawn for Necromancer spawn points, which is the only way to get more than one spawn point into a zone.


Indeed there is no ambiguity about necromancer spawn rule, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Was i that ambigous ?

Cheers
 
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Chuck Hurd
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longagoigo wrote:
I really don't see where you are seeing ambiguity. Page 29 under Necromancers explains how to spawn for Necromancer spawn points, which is the only way to get more than one spawn point into a zone.

Hmm...the Necro rules starting on page 29 tells you to place a spawn token when the Necro enters (and "From now on, the Necromancer Spawn Zone is active:...", and the example they use shows multiple tokens in the zone), then it tells you to remove a spawn zone if you kill him. So, are you removing a token or a zone along with however many tokens in it? Unfortunately, they miss the perfect opportunity in the "Good ending" example to show removing one token from a multi-token zone and instead show removing an irrelevant one token zone. Voila! Ambiguity
 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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If you could remove Spawn zones (all spawn tokens in a singular zone) you could win the game by removing the last Spawn zone on the board

First start stacking tokens in a single zone, camp near that zone, wait for the next Necromancer to spawn and remove the whole zone at once


I didn't even notice those amiguities, because i played modern Zcide and so i read only part of the rulebook again ^^
 
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toof fou
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All ambiguities can be forgotten when relying on:
- rules regarding 7+ players
- quest setup requirement (spawn token are called spawn zone !!)
- french rules regarding necromancers spawn token removal (not spawn zone as stated in english rules)

To sum up : spawn zone is strictly equivalent to spawn token.
Consequences:
- one zombi card is drawn for each spawn token (assuming no double spawn is draw)
- when necromancer is killed, any one spawn token must be removed from the board.

Yeah !!
Clarification over !
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Jeffrey Nolin
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toofou wrote:
longagoigo wrote:
I really don't see where you are seeing ambiguity. Page 29 under Necromancers explains how to spawn for Necromancer spawn points, which is the only way to get more than one spawn point into a zone.


Indeed there is no ambiguity about necromancer spawn rule, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Was i that ambigous ?

Cheers


toofou wrote:
One board zone with two spawn token inside it is representing:
B- a board zone with two spawn zone that will triggers two zombi card draws one after another ?
Nothing in rules allows to get rid of this ambiguity !


I'm still wondering how you are getting two spawn tokens in a zone, if one of them is not a necromancer spawn token? If there is no ambiguity about the necromancer spawn, then where is the ambiguity?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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longagoigo wrote:
I'm still wondering how you are getting two spawn tokens in a zone, if one of them is not a necromancer spawn token? If there is no ambiguity about the necromancer spawn, then where is the ambiguity?

The ambiguity i that it says to remove a Spawn Zone, rather than a Spawn Token. The rules also say that Necromancers ignore their Spawn Zone when finding the closest token to escape from.

If you treat these two identically worded terms the same way, you will get one rule or the other wrong.

Also, there are Quests that start with stacked Spawn Zone Tokens in the same Zone, so that is another way for what you are asking about too.
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Ian Clarke

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longagoigo wrote:
toofou wrote:
longagoigo wrote:
I really don't see where you are seeing ambiguity. Page 29 under Necromancers explains how to spawn for Necromancer spawn points, which is the only way to get more than one spawn point into a zone.


Indeed there is no ambiguity about necromancer spawn rule, but this is not the topic of this thread.

Was i that ambigous ? :p

Cheers


toofou wrote:
One board zone with two spawn token inside it is representing:
B- a board zone with two spawn zone that will triggers two zombi card draws one after another ?
Nothing in rules allows to get rid of this ambiguity !


I'm still wondering how you are getting two spawn tokens in a zone, if one of them is not a necromancer spawn token? If there is no ambiguity about the necromancer spawn, then where is the ambiguity?


Have a look at Page 30 of the rulebook.

Both examples show 2 spawn tokens in the Lower Left space on board 6V.

The zombie movement on page 24 shows zombies moving between zones and seems to be the only place the rules explain a zone is a space on the boards (To be honest I think most people would understand that a zone is a space, but....)

So the examples on page 30 show 2 spawn tokens in a Zone.

Page 25 defines a spawn zone as "Zombie Spawn tokens mark
the Spawn Zones’ locations." and "The Quest maps show where Zombies appear at the end of each Zombies’ Phase. These are the Spawn Zones."

So the zone with 2 tokens is a Spawn Zone, so when on Page 30 you kill a necromancer it says "Killing a Necromancer slows the invasion. If you manage to kill it, choose a Spawn Zone (including its own Necromancer Spawn Zone) and remove it from the board." this is where the confusion lies, it suggests removing a spawn ZONE. I think we all know it means just 1 spawn TOKEN, but is it ambiguous!

They should have stuck with spawn TOKEN throughout the rulebook, if you read the rest of page 25 you'll see how the game changes dramatically if it means Zone or Token.
"Indicate a Spawn Zone and draw a Zombie card. Read the line on the card that corresponds to the color of the Danger Level of the most experienced Survivor still in the game (Blue, Yellow, Orange, or Red). Place the number and type of Zombies shown.
Repeat this for each Spawn Zone.
Always begin with the same Spawn Zone and continue clockwise."

Suggesting 1 card per zone where there is at least 1 token, but again I think most people would understand they mean Token not zone wspecially as that is implied on page 29.

That said if they really mean zone it would make the Cabal rules less of a game killer.

 
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Flo Heisenbrain
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I just thought of this again.

What if they use Token and Zone equivalent and they mean Token in every instance. The mixed wording could origin from a distinction between the physical Token as the piece of cardboard and a "metaphorical" Spawn Zone as in the place the Zombies come from, being marked on the board by a Token.

Just my 50 cents
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Heisenbrain wrote:
What if they use Token and Zone equivalent and they mean Token in every instance.

This is almost the case. The exception is that they definitely mean 'Zone' in the case of Necromancer routing. Necromancers ignore their 'entry Zone' and it is clear from the rules that this means they ignore all tokens in that Zone, not just the token they spawned from.
 
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Tyrell Wood
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It seems to me that the rules are implying a token here. It may be a bit ambiguous but designer intent is obvious that a single token is removed not an entire zones worth of tokens when a necromancer is killed. A spawn zone is a space on the map where zombies spawn. One card is drawn for each spawn token in a spawn zone. This just seems logical based on all Zombicide games to me.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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tyrellrwood wrote:
It seems to me that the rules are implying a token here. It may be a bit ambiguous but designer intent is obvious that a single token is removed not an entire zones worth of tokens when a necromancer is killed. A spawn zone is a space on the map where zombies spawn. One card is drawn for each spawn token in a spawn zone. This just seems logical based on all Zombicide games to me.


I believe that's logical to all of us.

Nobody is really against that. The only real argument being made is that the rules confuse people by not being consistent in their terminology.

The answer is that Spawn Zones and Spawn Tokens are nearly interchangeable terms, except when discussing the Necromancer's entry Zone.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
tyrellrwood wrote:
It seems to me that the rules are implying a token here. It may be a bit ambiguous but designer intent is obvious that a single token is removed not an entire zones worth of tokens when a necromancer is killed. A spawn zone is a space on the map where zombies spawn. One card is drawn for each spawn token in a spawn zone. This just seems logical based on all Zombicide games to me.


I believe that's logical to all of us.

Nobody is really against that. The only real argument being made is that the rules confuse people by not being consistent in their terminology.

The answer is that Spawn Zones and Spawn Tokens are nearly interchangeable terms, except when discussing the Necromancer's entry Zone.

Yeah, I feel bad for the thousands (likely) of players out there that don't know any Zombicide before they pick this game up. They are not BGG members and they're sitting at home trying to figure all this out from scratch. Who knows how they are playing not knowing any better.
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Adrian
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I have a spawn zone/spawn token question, so I thought I would just piggyback this thread rather than create a new one.

It's clear that you have a certain number of spawn zones as described in the scenario setup, each designated with a single spawn token. During the zombie spawn phase, you are instructed to pick a spawn zone and draw a zombie spawn card, then move clockwise around the map and continue to spawn zombies in each zone (1, 2, and 3, for example). You then maintain this same order throughout the scenario so that you can properly resolve double spawns. I am at work and don't have the manual in front of me, so this is all paraphrasing from memory, but I think that's the gist of it.

My question is this. When you spawn a necromancer, you add an additional spawn token in the spawn zone (say spawn zone 1). When drawing cards for the zombie spawn phase, is the newly added spawn token treated as part of spawn zone 1 and draw 2 zombie cards before moving to spawn zone 2? Or, would you treat it as spawn token 4, and when resolving zombie spawns progress from 1 to 2 to 3 and then back to 4 (which is really in spawn zone 1)? This makes a difference in how you would resolve double spawn cards.

We treated the newly added spawn token as spawn token 4, and then when we are going through the zombie spawn phase, we progressed from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4. But, this can get kind of crazy late in the game when you've spawned and killed multiple necromancers and added and removed multiple spawn tokens.

Edit: This also highlights another question. If the scenario calls for a green spawn token which is only activated when the green objective is uncovered, how do you handle that zombie spawn progression. If we follow the same setup as my previous question, then we have spawn zones 1, 2, 3, and 4 (green). If we spawn a necromancer before the green spawn zone is active, then we have 4 active spawn tokens on the board. Once the green zone is active we have 5 active tokens. Does the green zone get added at the end of the zombie spawn phase, or would you put it in order based on the initial scenario setup and then push the necromancer spawn to the end of the progression? Hopefully this makes sense?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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It's really up to you. However, it seems it would be difficult to memorise the order if playing it your way, especially given that you may remove earlier spawns and add later ones. If you're OK with the complexity, go for it, but it's not my cup of tea.

Hence, I always handle all the Spawn Tokens in a Zone before moving to the next Zone with tokens in it, regardless of whether those tokens were always there or have been added by a Necromancer later on. I usually handle the Spawn Zones that have appeared within buildings afterwards, although I may insert them earlier if they happen to be near the edge of the map.

As long as you are being consistent with the order for each turn, I think any method is fine. The strategic difference of changing the order is very minor (and really just affects the first Zone in the sequence most of the time).
 
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Brian
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During the first zombie phase I pick a spawn token. During each zombie phase I spawn the selected token and then proceed clockwise around the board spawning each token I come to. This includes tokens in the middle of buildings or second tokens in existing spawn zones.

I add tokens to the middle of the spawn order dependent on where they are located.

The only important thing is that the placement of spawn cards be arbitrary. You can't draw the spawn cards and say 'oh wouldn't it be nice if the runners are far from us, the NPCs are next to Joe and the fatty is next to me? Let's put them there!'. Any system that avoids that is basically fine.

For example if I am the last player for a round my buddy will usually handle the spawn that round (he pre-draws the cards, finds the minis and has everything ready to go when my turn ends). Both of us spawn the 12 o'clock spawn point first, that is the spawn point farthest from the player drawing the cards. But that's a different spawn point for him then for me. That isn't RAW, but it isn't a problem either. YMMV.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Clipper wrote:
Heisenbrain wrote:
What if they use Token and Zone equivalent and they mean Token in every instance.

This is almost the case. The exception is that they definitely mean 'Zone' in the case of Necromancer routing. Necromancers ignore their 'entry Zone' and it is clear from the rules that this means they ignore all tokens in that Zone, not just the token they spawned from.

Or perhaps, actually the case, as your example of an exception uses 'entry zone' not spawn zone, so of course that would mean they ignore all spawn zones in their entry zone.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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longagoigo wrote:
Or perhaps, actually the case, as your example of an exception uses 'entry zone' not spawn zone, so of course that would mean they ignore all spawn zones in their entry zone.


Except the rules also include this simplification:

Z:BP Rules p24 wrote:
IMPORTANT: Necromancers use their own Movement rules.
They always Move toward the nearest non-Necromancer
Spawn Zone (see P. 29)
 
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Sam ko
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Clipper wrote:
Z:BP Rules p24 wrote:
IMPORTANT: Necromancers use their own Movement rules.
They always Move toward the nearest non-Necromancer
Spawn Zone (see P. 29)

Regarding this rule, when a necromancer escape, does the spawn zone he created become an eligible exit for other necromancers or is it still a necromancer(-created) spawn zone ?
 
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