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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: What is lacking in Battlecon rss

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jitjit2x junior
Philippines
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Before anything else, I am a big fan of Battlecon and it is one of my favorite games.

I am not an expert of battlecon. I only have 30 games in real life, 3 by PbF, and 2 by vassal.

What I feel that is lacking in Battlecon is how to showcase your battlecon skill.

In a fighting game like Street Fighter, a pro player, (Daigo) can show to the world his ultimate skill by beating a beginner without losing any life point, and goes to beat that beginner maybe 3 games in a row. We can then conclude, just by looking at the life remaining that Daigo won convincingly.

But it will not happen in Battlecon. Surely, a pro battlecon player like Marco, can beat me 3 times in a row. But will not have a perfect life remaining. Maybe taking at least 5 to 10 damage every game. Surely, a pro battlecon player can outplay a beginner every beat. But it doesn't translate well to their life difference at the end of the game.
Hence, we can only conclude that they had a close fight, even though, beat per beat analysis shows otherwise.

But this is just me. Maybe not an issue at all. lol
What do you guys think
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Ken Sinn
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I think the 5-10 damage is a consequence of the cooldown. In SF, you can have a gameplan based on the matchup, and execute it to perfect, including using your best buttons in every scenario.

You don't have that option in Battlecon -- moves go into cooldown, and sometimes you're left with tools that force you to take damage (stun-guard moves). there are definitely a lot of characters whose toolset rely on trading damage, so you're never going to have that type of result.

I think winning 3 straight matches is pretty dominating.
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Lari Rissanen
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I've just started playing this game and so my opinion probably won't count for much, but from my experience of playing video fighting games, Battlecon is more about making big reads so it's more akin to two grapplers fighting each other. It's a matchup where people have to sometimes take big risks and think about how to mitigate the opponent's options. Rarely do grappler matchups end with a perfect win unless one completely falls in to the pattern of the other.

A pro knows better about what to do in a given situation to come out on top, to mitigate the other character's options. Although compared to video games one will probably rarely have perfect games, unless the matchup is heavily skewed in your favour, being a professional is more about being consistent at winning than being able to get perfect wins.

I don't think it's an issue that you don't have a huge life lead if you keep winning consistently.

And like I said in the beginning, this is a total newbie's opinion.

(and also what was said by the poster above about cooldowns compared to video games)
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Ken Sinn
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Another quick note to add -- BC encourages players to select the best move they have given the circumstances -- distance, cooldowns, etc. Sometimes, the best move is to take a small hit and retaliate with a stun-guard move. It's akin to a Gief giving up health to do more damage and better positioning. You'll rarely see Giefs dominating via perfect rounds -- the occasional Stupendous (SFV) Gief would wreck someone, but higher level Giefs are all about slowly constricting the opponent's options -- never about the amt of damage taken.
 
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Alex Martinez
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Wow, that sounds dreadful. I see no appeal in creating a system where your opponent can't do anything but be crushed by you. Such a system would be prone to abuse, and would easily create a sense of futility in players of lower skill level.

I've actually played one or two Battlecon games like this, and I didn't care for them. I didn't hate them because I love the system and the game, but if it had been my first or second or even third or fourth experience with the game, I probably would've hated it. Sitting across from a smug player who literally laughs as he slaughters you isn't fun, and while Battlecon is a game of skill, it should also be something fun.

The main difference I believe is that a game like Battlecon intentionally forces a player into sub-optimal moves now and then, and the skill of not having that hurt you is where the game really shines. Otherwise, it'd just be a game of memorized responses with no real interaction.

But, yeah, I'm glad it's not a thing in Battlecon. Very, very glad.
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Paul Johnson
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You can certainly get perfect wins in BattleCON; I've even done it in tournaments. You just need to play Runika to make it happen.

Win big or go home, that's the name of the game.
 
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Nate K
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Clearly you've never played Seth Cremmul cool
 
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Nerds call me
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I have over 200 games of BC. There's really no showboating in BC unless you are crushing it with a prediction character like O6, Drax or Xenitia. Otherwise, winning a beat 4-3 or 5-3 is as good as it goes sometimes. It's mostly a game of attrition.
 
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Marco Wong
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I believe the reasons behind have all been mentioned before. I just want to add 1 point:
Battlecon on itself has quite a steep learning curve, and I believe many players nowadays would simply prefer an easier alternative (e.g. Exceed, which in my opinion is a poorer design compared with Battlecon but I think it would get much more plays). In the end you many have 1 or 2 opponents who're willing/ eager to play this game. If you crush them a few times perfect, it is very likely that these players would move to games with more random elements e.g. Exceed. Personally, even if I have the chance to perfectly win against a amateur player, I would 'deliberately' let he hit me so that I could possibly play with him later.
 
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Olivier D.
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Get a perfect with Hepzibah, and I'll call you the Master of Indines devil

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Aaron White
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mildaene wrote:
Get a perfect with Hepzibah, and I'll call you the Master of Indines devil


I think Clinhyde would be the true test.
 
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Augusto E. Rodrigues
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You sure have never played against Phyr. I don't consider myself a bad battlecon player (you can see some of my games here on BGG), yet I never ever won against him, and he perfect me several times.

For me he is the Daigo of Battlecon. I always look forward playing against him because despite of the beating you always learn something new.
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Matthew Vines
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gravitypool wrote:
You sure have never played against Phyr. I don't consider myself a bad battlecon player (you can see some of my games here on BGG), yet I never ever won against him, and he perfect me several times.

For me he is the Daigo of Battlecon. I always look forward playing against him because despite of the beating you always learn something new.


I agree, Phyr is probably the top player I know of. There isn't a twitch channel or anything where you can see him play perfect games, but there are a lot of Forum game logs that you can go through to see how he plays. It's a game more like chess than SFV really, and like chess, if you want to see how a grandmaster subtly dominated his opponent, you need to study the game move by move, and see how he limited his opponents options, tricked him in to overly aggressive moves, and generally was in his head for the entire match.
 
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Marco Santos
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jitjit2x wrote:
But it will not happen in Battlecon. Surely, a pro battlecon player like Marco, can beat me 3 times in a row. But will not have a perfect life remaining. Maybe taking at least 5 to 10 damage every game. Surely, a pro battlecon player can outplay a beginner every beat. But it doesn't translate well to their life difference at the end of the game.
Hence, we can only conclude that they had a close fight, even though, beat per beat analysis shows otherwise.

But this is just me. Maybe not an issue at all. lol
What do you guys think


Well, first off, I'd like to start with the fact that, although I have played hundreds of games, I don't really think of myself as a "pro." Like many have said, Phyr's probably one of the top best at this game (though I have beaten him before, so he's not a literal god).

You can probably beat me. There is veteran's handicap, after all.

I guess the thing is that the measure of what makes a "dominating" BattleCON game is VERY different from the measure of a regular video game fighting game.

In BattleCON, it'll hardly be about life totals, but it will USUALLY be about card locks, good reads, and big plays. The better player isn't usually the one with the perfect life total, but establishing a good life-lead and maintaining that advantage is key.

Perfect games are possible in BattleCON (I've had a few), but, again, they're usually the result of absolutely amazing card management and excellent reads.

One thing I want to point out is this: BattleCON has no execution barrier. Knowledge is power in this game. Once you recognize/know that an attack beats X, you can and will 100% be able to perform that attack. In a game like Street Fighter, just because you know that the DP is a good anti-air, it doesn't mean you'll be able to land and perform that DP when you need it. This is because there's an execution barrier. You need to be able to perform the button inputs in the correct time frame to make it work.

In BattleCON, this is simply not the case. The player can always analyze the situation, then execute the attack they think wins them the beat. Performing the attack is as simple as placing 2 cards face-down. You can't mess it up.

Thus, the floor for a BattleCON player is way HIGHER than your average video game fighter player. Even someone at HALF Daigo's skill level will get a hit or two in on him. This is simply because of the "footsie" aspect of a fighting game. In neutral, if you and the opponent can somewhat reliably perform every single move in a character's kit, the footsie game is essentially a huge mind game. You're spacing each other and trying to psyche each other out in order to get a hit in (and then subsequently combo).

What makes a real fighting game legend like Daigo great ISN'T his ability to perform combos (though that is part of it). What really makes him awesome is the ability to read plays, and execute viable counter strategies.

In a sense, BattleCON is a game that's basically ALL FOOTSIES. The mind games are the center of the match. If anything, I think my game VS Phyr somewhat illustrates this: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1181372/drugs-and-panda-cli...

For all intents and purposes, I do believe that Phyr was the better player that game, seeing as I committed a LOT of mistakes. However, it was precisely my weird mistakes that kinda "won" me the game. I was making plays that didn't really make sense, which, I think, contributed to me winning. The final beat is a BIG example of this, as Phyr doesn't go for a play that could have won him the game, simply because he thought that "Marco wouldn't let me do that." I totally would have let him do that, btw.

So yeah. BattleCON just operates on a different set of criteria for what makes a "dominating" game. If all else fails, you could just play Seth (as Nate mentioned) and repeatedly deny your opponent with Raw Omens of hype.

Edit: On a deeper level, you can also consider this: in BattleCON, sometimes, trading is the best play you can make. Sure, I can do a play that will result in me stunning the opponent, making them miss, or dodging them completely. However, this can often result in me lacking the cards I need next turn, or simply putting me in an awkward spot for the next beat.

Life is pretty much a resource in this game, albeit one that's more precious than in other cards games (like Magic). Regardless, it's still a resource you spend. You can be at a 5 health deficit, but if that 5 health loss leads to a situation wherein you now have 3 beats of free damage against an opponent (which can be the case against a Kaitlyn), then that's 5 health well-spent.

Like many people have said, it's a lot like chess (my friends and I call it "Tekken Chess" for a reason). You make strategic decisions that only people who are "into" the game will appreciate. To a bystander, it looks like you're just playing a bunch of cards.
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jitjit2x junior
Philippines
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Thanks marco for a generous reply.

When will battlecon online be out?

So that we can have our "EVO" of fighting card games. We can battle our hearts out to be champions, lol.
Maybe we could invite other fighting card games. The only one that I know of is Battlecon, Exceed, and Yomi
 
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Alison Mandible
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jitjit2x wrote:
The only one that I know of is Battlecon, Exceed, and Yomi


BattleCON and Yomi are the big ones (hopefully Exceed too, but it's too early to tell). But there are others:

Dragon Punch
Vanquish Sky
Flash Duel: Revised Second Edition

My hope for a "board game EVO" would be to include other asymmetric dueling games like:

Tash-Kalar: Arena of Legends
Summoner Wars
Arena: Morituri te salutant
Puzzle Strike
Blue Moon Legends

It would be super fun.
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Marco Santos
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jitjit2x wrote:
Thanks marco for a generous reply.

When will battlecon online be out?

So that we can have our "EVO" of fighting card games. We can battle our hearts out to be champions, lol.
Maybe we could invite other fighting card games. The only one that I know of is Battlecon, Exceed, and Yomi


I mean, it has to be a game that's visually-enjoyable to watch without intricate knowledge. I highly doubt anything will feel like an EVO experience.

As for BCO, I have no idea. I have no "insider" info on that. I just know what the KS backers know.
 
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Thiago Colas
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grasa_total wrote:
jitjit2x wrote:
The only one that I know of is Battlecon, Exceed, and Yomi


BattleCON and Yomi are the big ones (hopefully Exceed too, but it's too early to tell). But there are others:

Dragon Punch
Vanquish Sky
Flash Duel: Revised Second Edition

My hope for a "board game EVO" would be to include other asymmetric dueling games like:

Tash-Kalar: Arena of Legends
Summoner Wars
Arena: Morituri te salutant
Puzzle Strike
Blue Moon Legends

It would be super fun.


Allow me to include:
Luchador! Mexican Wrestling Dice
WWE Superstar Showdown
JAB: Realtime Boxing

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and
Brawl
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