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The Walking Dead: No Sanctuary» Forums » General

Subject: Trending toward defunding? rss

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Jeff K
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I'll have to admit that I visited the No Sanctuary KS page today to drop my pledge to $1. But I was shocked to see a massive exodus overnight. The game has lost over $6500 today. Another drop of that magnitude will bring the game very close to dropping below its goal.

A brief look through the comments shows a lot of negativity, currently. But an important point that is floating around is that, should the game defund AND CZ decide not to go ahead with the production, there is no guarantee that the IP will allow them to move forward with a new KS campaign. This sentiment was echoed by the Sadlers. I assume they could go ahead anyway, if they wanted, despite whatever funding level was reached. But that's not a good sign.

I would really hate it if this game did not see the light of day, but at the same time I can't stay in this campaign with its current tenor. So I'm down to a buck, and am wondering what will happen this week (if anything).
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Greg
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It's dropped from $264k-$257k overnight. Pretty crazy.
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Paul Chamberland
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At the current rate, it could defund by the end of the day.

Not quite the reaction Crypto was expecting from SDCC.
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Jake Rose
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If it defunds and they can't run another KS, (or even better, bring it to market without a KS), oh well. The market is flooded with good games and better figures from companies that are not as clueless.

The designers are sure to use design elements/mechanisms they designed for this game in another game if this one goes down the shitter.

A poorly run campaign should fail, regardless of the IP or game designer pedigree. I have no problem with that.
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Terence Lee
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What seems to be the issue with the game? I'm kind of surprised about the low support, although I do think the kickstarter wasn't handled as well as it should've been.
 
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tlee33 wrote:
What seems to be the issue with the game? I'm kind of surprised about the low support, although I do think the kickstarter wasn't handled as well as it should've been.

$250k to fund. $375 to add 4 "additional" characters to the base set which they plan to produce. Hard to attract backers with so little value at such a high dollar amount.
 
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Jake Rose
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Did they do daily updates?

KS only shows 9 updates, with the last on 22 July.


That does not seem like 'daily' to me. Comments disappear FAST as the page fills up.

And the campaign has not been run well. The funding level and the comments are pretty damned indicative of that.

I find it pretty silly to think lack of pre-project advertising could be due to the license. Do you really want to put forth the idea that AMC, who hypes the snot out of Walking Dead, was against Cryptozoic hyping this project? I would find that hard to believe.

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Davej360 wrote:
I don't think there was an issue with the campaign. I don't understand why some think it was poorly run. They made changes and did what they can to boost it. They do daily updates. The only knock was the lack of pre-launch advertising, but they was probably do to their license.


They did fix some of the problems with the kickstarter, but initially, it was terrible. I think they ended up losing a lot of backers from those mistakes and some of them didn't come back. I was one who changed my mind and decided to back it after they fixed some of the goals and the value of the kickstarter became a bit more attractive. There' still some confusing elements to the kickstarter that they did address, but they're fixed in the updates and not on the kickstarter page.

Anyway, considering Zombicide reaching 2 million, I find it surprising this game can't even hit $375k. I'm surprised just the Walking Dead license didn't attract more people, but I guess that audience may not be gamers who are willing to dish out more than $100 for a game.
 
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If you read through the comments it seems that AMC is also involved (or at least needs to approve) any changes. Seemingly a KS plan was presented to them and I'm guessing Cryptozoic doesn't have free reign to change what was agreed up prior to the KS being launched since they're working with a licensed IP.

Assuming they can relaunch it's probably a smart move to come up with a better plan.

 
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Jeff K
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Davej360 wrote:
I don't think there was an issue with the campaign. I don't understand why some think it was poorly run. They made changes and did what they can to boost it. They do daily updates. The only knock was the lack of pre-launch advertising, but they was probably do to their license.

I honestly think that for multiple reasons people just didn't want this game. The recent other mini TWD games is one. The other is I just don't think the KS crowd has a lot of love for Crypto. etc



I kind of disagree. I think the game was a solid concept, and it seems that plenty of people were looking for excuses to jump in. But they were given none.

I don't think it is saturation. I think a good game on a subject always has a chance to do well. For me, this one seemed to offer much that other games did not. After trying several on this topic, I have n;t found one I like, so this could have been it.

But I think you have to give people a reason to back. If others can come along later and get the same stuff you did at a much cheaper price (after keeping their money for a year), then its a problem. I mean, yes on one hand we've become a bit spoiled by OLGS prices, and many companies (such as Asmodee) are trying to end that... forcibly. But OTOH you don't have to drop your shorts, just throw people a bone. From my perspective, that campaign had almost zero perks to offer. But obviously others will feel differently.

EDIT: forgot to include what I was replying to!
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Guilly Berto
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tlee33 wrote:

Anyway, considering Zombicide reaching 2 million, I find it surprising this game can't even hit $375k. I'm surprised just the Walking Dead license didn't attract more people, but I guess that audience may not be gamers who are willing to dish out more than $100 for a game.


The thing is, Zombicide has a lot of board game hobbyist fans who have no problem dropping 200 or even 300 bucks on a game. The Walking Dead as an IP certainly has some board game hobbyist fans, but they are a very small percentage of that overall base. Most people who are not hobbyists think its nuts to spend 60 bucks on a game, much less 130+. Hobbyists tend to look at what is being offered, then look over on the Massive Darkness page and see what was given for 120 bucks and scoff. In this way CMON is basically ruining miniature KSers for other companies. There was a time when 5-700k would have been considered a great success. Now if you don't take off like a rocket ship and hit half a mil in the first few days everyone wants to pile in and try to "fix" the campaign. The negativity snowballs, that comment section is toxic. Anything under 2 mil is a failure now, hell there are people who were trying to say Massive Darkness was a failure since it "only" hit 3.5 mil.

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Terence Lee
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Well, it's too bad...this game does look like it'll actually be fun to play. If it doesn't hit 375k, I may drop out too because the value won't really be there. Even with the stretch goals, it's pretty expensive, but I'm in still.

Option 2 - I can always get the $40 base game and get the expansions later. If I really want minis, I'll just proxy with my Zombicide figures.

And another thing, if the stretch goals aren't meant, I don't want to have a game with minis and then I'll have standees in future expansions or releases.
 
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Once it was confirmed that the $40 standee version would be sold in mass market stores I dropped my pledge. That version is fine with me. If I end up loving the game I will pick up a hobby version and expansions later at retail.
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Guillyberto wrote:
Hobbyists tend to look at what is being offered, then look over on the Massive Darkness page and see what was given for 120 bucks and scoff. In this way CMON is basically ruining miniature KSers for other companies. There was a time when 5-700k would have been considered a great success. Now if you don't take off like a rocket ship and hit half a mil in the first few days everyone wants to pile in and try to "fix" the campaign.


I not really sure this is true, either. There is no reason that a smaller campaign running at 500K couldn't be a huge success. I've said this other places, but I'll repeat it here. The only thing that really needs to happen is to give people a reason to pledge. If they had started the campaign at the base game and the first expansion, (or even really just the base game), and then structured the SGs so that what ended up in the pledge was the base game and one or two expansions, this would have been wildly successful.

The way people are looking at it is pragmatic, which is as it should be. They are looking at a cost of $125 for a base game and an expansion. Honestly, for a $90 base game and a $35 expansion, you are paying a retail cost. That could be okay, if you had decent SGs to rope people in, But they don't.

If they would have structured the SGs to work towards including the Killer Within, which of course is the one everybody was interested in, suddenly you have the prospect of $160 worth of retail for your entry fee. Add in some nice small KSEs, and then it becomes a fairly attractive package. Better yet, start it at $90 with the base game and a KSE and a low goal, and let people work toward the other two expansions via SG. Base game plus two expansions for $90 would get me throwing money in for sure.

It doesn't have to end up as some super-mega mini-fest to attract 500K at that point. I think it could still be considered a huge success and if it is a franchise they could milk for a while, it would be great for them.
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Xookliba wrote:


I not really sure this is true, either. There is no reason that a smaller campaign running at 500K couldn't be a huge success. I've said this other places, but I'll repeat it here. The only thing that really needs to happen is to give people a reason to pledge. If they had started the campaign at the base game and the first expansion, (or even really just the base game), and then structured the SGs so that what ended up in the pledge was the base game and one or two expansions, this would have been wildly successful.

The way people are looking at it is pragmatic, which is as it should be. They are looking at a cost of $125 for a base game and an expansion. Honestly, for a $90 base game and a $35 expansion, you are paying a retail cost. That could be okay, if you had decent SGs to rope people in, But they don't.

If they would have structured the SGs to work towards including the Killer Within, which of course is the one everybody was interested in, suddenly you have the prospect of $160 worth of retail for your entry fee. Add in some nice small KSEs, and then it becomes a fairly attractive package. Better yet, start it at $90 with the base game and a KSE and a low goal, and let people work toward the other two expansions via SG. Base game plus two expansions for $90 would get me throwing money in for sure.

It doesn't have to end up as some super-mega mini-fest to attract 500K at that point. I think it could still be considered a huge success and if it is a franchise they could milk for a while, it would be great for them.


I've said it loads of times before: They started on the wrong foot by front-loading the campaign to pay for the base game and two expansions. They put themselves in the hole for something like $200K in molds, and that meant the initial funding goal was too high. There is a massive amount of value in being able to advertise your campaign with that "funded" badge on your icon, and it would have been a good way to introduce excitement by announcing the season 2 and 3 add-ons to the campaign as the funding allowed.

I also think trying to make two versions of the game was an odd choice. They could have made a single version - a version that comes with 8 plastic hero miniatures and double-sided tokens for the zombies. This would be the kind of thing that people would expect to see in mass market distribution. They could have then done an add-on, or a series of stretch goals, to upgrade the tokens with miniatures for those people who wanted them.
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Guilly Berto
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Xookliba wrote:
Guillyberto wrote:
Hobbyists tend to look at what is being offered, then look over on the Massive Darkness page and see what was given for 120 bucks and scoff. In this way CMON is basically ruining miniature KSers for other companies. There was a time when 5-700k would have been considered a great success. Now if you don't take off like a rocket ship and hit half a mil in the first few days everyone wants to pile in and try to "fix" the campaign.


I not really sure this is true, either. There is no reason that a smaller campaign running at 500K couldn't be a huge success. I've said this other places, but I'll repeat it here. The only thing that really needs to happen is to give people a reason to pledge. If they had started the campaign at the base game and the first expansion, (or even really just the base game), and then structured the SGs so that what ended up in the pledge was the base game and one or two expansions, this would have been wildly successful.

The way people are looking at it is pragmatic, which is as it should be. They are looking at a cost of $125 for a base game and an expansion. Honestly, for a $90 base game and a $35 expansion, you are paying a retail cost. That could be okay, if you had decent SGs to rope people in, But they don't.

If they would have structured the SGs to work towards including the Killer Within, which of course is the one everybody was interested in, suddenly you have the prospect of $160 worth of retail for your entry fee. Add in some nice small KSEs, and then it becomes a fairly attractive package. Better yet, start it at $90 with the base game and a KSE and a low goal, and let people work toward the other two expansions via SG. Base game plus two expansions for $90 would get me throwing money in for sure.

It doesn't have to end up as some super-mega mini-fest to attract 500K at that point. I think it could still be considered a huge success and if it is a franchise they could milk for a while, it would be great for them.


Isn't retail cost the way most mini games are launched now? I can't remember seeing one where they are advertising 20 or 30% off MSRP. Massive Darkness launched at 120 bucks, which I suspect is even 20 bucks over full retail and double what I can currently get Z:BP for. It didn't even include an expansion. People are not Monday morning quarterbacking that campaign structure because it funded in 2 minutes on the back of CMON and Zcide's rep. But even if you look at some of the successful campaigns outside of CMON: Sword and Sorcery base pledge 100 (yes in my opinion 4 or 500k is a success), Conan 90 but the majority of backers went in at 135 -- and you could site a dozen more. These are full retail prices, no different that what is being pitched here. The fact is by day 2 the negativity was starting to creep in because it wasn't funded. If you had funded 250k in the first few days and then only finished at 500k there is no way most people consider the campaign a success. People see the popularity of walking dead and expect it to go big. Your idea about the expansions are fine, but if they had stated they were going to work toward unlocking an expansion people would have been moaning about their favorite characters not getting unlocked, then fretting about the whole expansion not getting unlocked, etc, etc.
 
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

I also think trying to make two versions of the game was an odd choice. They could have made a single version - a version that comes with 8 plastic hero miniatures and double-sided tokens for the zombies. This would be the kind of thing that people would expect to see in mass market distribution. They could have then done an add-on, or a series of stretch goals, to upgrade the tokens with miniatures for those people who wanted them.


110% agree to this! Why make 2 versions and make your costs skyrocket because of this? I think they were thinking that everyone wants minis, so lets make it for them. They could've easily marketed the game with standees, and made the hero minis as stretch goals.
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tlee33 wrote:
110% agree to this! Why make 2 versions and make your costs skyrocket because of this? I think they were thinking that everyone wants minis, so lets make it for them. They could've easily marketed the game with standees, and made the hero minis as stretch goals.

Better yet, made the base game and expansions with standees and offered the miniatures as add-ons. Plenty of hobbyists would have purchased the minis and that way, they would make money from people that didn't even care about the game and would buy only miniatures.
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Holy crap. That is some serious hemorrhaging. Over 10k net negative in the middle of the campaign?

What just happened to cause it?
 
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dkearns wrote:
Holy crap. That is some serious hemorrhaging. Over 10k net negative in the middle of the campaign?

What just happened to cause it?


People realized that with a week to go, it just wasn't going to be worth it.

I'm not surprised really.

Hopefully they come back and do this properly, maybe even advertise it.
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Not so much something happened to cause it, more like nothing happened to prevent it.


The rumbling has been there, and Cryptozoic has ignored it. Now folks are using the power of their wallets to send a message.
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Davej360 wrote:
I don't think there was an issue with the campaign. I don't understand why some think it was poorly run. They made changes and did what they can to boost it. They do daily updates. The only knock was the lack of pre-launch advertising, but they was probably do to their license.

I honestly think that for multiple reasons people just didn't want this game. The recent other mini TWD games is one. The other is I just don't think the KS crowd has a lot of love for Crypto. etc



I was actually very interested in the game. There are lots of things that made this a bad campaign (and that they've done nothing about so far).

1. Forced to buy an expansion when you are not sure about the game
2. The expansion I want is not the one I am forced to buy
3. KS exclusive Daryl was stupid. It duplicates a figure we already have (so basically we are getting 3 new cards). Should have been Lori.
4. Unrealistic social media goals. To ask so many people to do certain things when there are so few backers is a BIG error in judgment.
5. 2 of 5 stretch goals don't add to the game (including the first one). Should have been Shane, T-Dog, Meryl, then maybe some more walkers and dice.
6. Stretch goals are too far apart. They should have made them $5-10K apart once they realized there was a problem.
7. They promised lots of stuff early on and are not able to deliver (at least so far and without more major changes)

I can live with the goal of $250K. This is a popular IP. The game designers have a good reputation. The minis look great. I appreciate that they made some effort, but quite frankly it was too little, too late.

This should have been $1 million campaign. Instead, it is struggling to even maintain funding. That is a poorly run campaign by definition.

EDIT: And it is not clear if we'll get all 8 figures on the box cover. This significantly reduces replayability. If we do not, they should change the cover or there will be a lot of disappointed people at retail as well.
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dkearns wrote:
Holy crap. That is some serious hemorrhaging. Over 10k net negative in the middle of the campaign?

What just happened to cause it?

Timing is the day after Comic Con. Crypto expected to get backers by showing off the game there. Didn't happen. It's now obvious the campaign isn't going anywhere so people started bailing or dropping to $1.
 
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I at least respect the fact that they put an honest higher funding goal and avoided the too-low amount just for KS gamesmanship. I've heard on several campaigns now that the projects in question could in fact not have been funded at the listed funding amount and needed to go well over that to break even. The lower amounts on those other projects seem often to be there, yes, just to advertise how quickly they were funded and in what multiples of the original funding amount the dollars have been collected. I regret that avoiding this practice was one of the things that has appeared to have bitten this project.
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I backed TWD:NS on day 1 as an EB.

But, it looks like it's not going to get any of the stretch goals, even if it funds, so it doesn't seem to have the value for me. Especially, since I have a number of other zombie games like a full sets (everything) of Zombicide, Zombicide: Black Plague, Last Night on Earth among others like Dead of Winter and Carnival Zombie.

Do I think Cryptozoic would have improved on the Ghostbusters minis? Absolutely. I think they would have brought them back to the level they did for The Doom That Came To Atlantic City.

Do I think it would have been a good game? Yes. But, without the stretch goals it would have felt incomplete.

I think the funding reflects that the market is both saturated for zombie miniature games as well as TWD games (because of Mantic's success of The Walking Dead: All Out War).

It seems Cryptozoic is just too late for this release to be economically viable. Cryptozoic seems well positioned to work with licensed IPs. Perhaps they might be more successful with something like Penny Dreadful.
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