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The Battle of Five Armies» Forums » Rules

Subject: Control Marker and Front Gate rss

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Atanasije Stojkovic
Serbia
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Can a control marker be placed on a Front Gate or maintaining a presence of Shadow Army forces is required for controlling it? There doesn't seem to be anywhere a "Settlement" icon in that region.
 
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Koolin
Netherlands
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Once you have taken control, you keep control until the other team takes control by reconquering the settlement. To indicate this, even when there are no army units present, you use control markers.

This holds for any settlement (Dale, Northern slope, Camp) and therefore I think it also holds for the Front Gate.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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Koolin wrote:
Once you have taken control, you keep control until the other team takes control by reconquering the settlement. To indicate this, even when there are no army units present, you use control markers.

This holds for any settlement (Dale, Northern slope, Camp) and therefore I think it also holds for the Front Gate.


Does it? The Front Gate is special in the way victory is imminent if you get to 10 points with it.

This, along with the special case of it NOT being a settlement, also lacking an icon to put a control marker, makes me think capturing it follows different rules all around.

All the rules about passing through, capturing and liberating, very specifically refer to Settlements, of which the Front Gate most definitely isn't. E. g. holding Camp and the Front Gate obviously doesn't grant the Shadow Player the 7th action Die, nor does it allow him to play events that require control of at least 2 Settlements as a prerequisite (or use Bolg's mustering special ability).
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Even though Front Gate is not a Settlement, control of it is a part of the victory conditions, so it must be tracked with a Control marker.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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Krieghund wrote:
Even though Front Gate is not a Settlement, control of it is a part of the victory conditions, so it must be tracked with a Control marker.


So it only does not count in the case of the 7th die or for playing Settlement related cards?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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No, it doesn't count for those, as it's not a Settlement.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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Krieghund wrote:
No, it doesn't count for those, as it's not a Settlement.


I've just double-checked the rules:

Quote:
- Fortifications (Ravenhill, Front Gate and Eastern Spur) are all worth 4 points each
- Other Settlements are worth 2 points each


So it would seem the Front Gate does count as a Settlement after all, meaning holding Camp and the Front Gate would both get the Shadow Player the extra Action Die as well as allow the use of Bolg's recruitment special ability.

Weird.
 
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Andrew B
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Sargeras777 wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
No, it doesn't count for those, as it's not a Settlement.


I've just double-checked the rules:

Quote:
- Fortifications (Ravenhill, Front Gate and Eastern Spur) are all worth 4 points each
- Other Settlements are worth 2 points each


So it would seem the Front Gate does count as a Settlement after all, meaning holding Camp and the Front Gate would both get the Shadow Player the extra Action Die as well as allow the use of Bolg's recruitment special ability.


The Front Gate is not a settlement. It does not have a settlement icon, it's clear as day it is not a settlement.

Your quote does not say it's a settlement, it just says that all the other settlements not mentioned in the previous bullet are worth 2 points, that does not mean that all three previous items are settlements.

If you would have read just above the lines you quoted you'd have seen further, needless, confirmation of this fact.

Chapter XI: Victory Conditions wrote:
Victory in The Battle of Five Armies is based
on the control of key areas on the game board
(Settlements and the Front Gate).
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David Imparato
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I think that this is a very interesting question that needs clarification. If Front Gate is not a settlement (and I think that the absence of the settlement icon indicates that it is not), then none of the rules that apply to settlements should apply to it. So, the original question asked above should be answered no, a control marker should not be placed on Front Gate.

In addition, I would assume the retreat rule (that an army may not retreat into an adjacent region containing, "... a Settlement controlled by the enemy") also does not apply to Front Gate. Believe it or not, this rule just impacted me as I stupidly defended Camp from an enemy Shadow army without leaving an army in Front Gate or the region above Camp. The Shadow army moved around my force to the space between Camp and Front Gate. I attacked with my army from Camp and came within one damage point of completely destroying the Shadow army. Sadly for me, one Warg unit survived and routed into Front Gate giving the Shadow player an immediate victory as he now had 10 victory points including Front Gate.
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David Imparato
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I see that in another thread someone asked the designer specifically about this issue and his answer agreed with Kevin's above that Front Gate is considered a "controllable region" and therefore should get a control marker and can not be retreated into.

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Craig S.
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daveimparato wrote:
I see that in another thread someone asked the designer specifically about this issue and his answer agreed with Kevin's above that Front Gate is considered a "controllable region" and therefore should get a control marker and can not be retreated into.



This ruling leads to other questions about control of non-settlement regions. The reasoning for this ruling seems to be that control of Front Gate can matter to the game, even though it isn't a settlement; therefore, it should get a control marker. This suggests that once the shadow has control there, it can move all units out and still maintain control there as if it were a conquered settlement .

But...control of any region in the Valley can also matter in regards to bringing Bolg into play. So...does that mean that once the shadow gains control in any Valley region, they can move all forces out of that region, have no other units or control markers in the Valley, and still bring Bolg into play?

Intuitively, it seems that "control" of non-settlement regions, including Front Gate, can only be claimed by the presence of friendly units.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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csouth154 wrote:
The reasoning for this ruling seems to be that control of Front Gate can matter to the game, even though it isn't a settlement; therefore, it should get a control marker. This suggests that once the shadow has control there, it can move all units out and still maintain control there as if it were a conquered settlement .

Correct.

csouth154 wrote:
But...control of any region in the Valley can also matter in regards to bringing Bolg into play.

Incorrect. Bolg's entry condition requires that a Shadow Army be present in a region in the Valley, not that the Shadow control such a region (see his Character card).

csouth154 wrote:
So...does that mean that once the shadow gains control in any Valley region, they can move all forces out of that region, have no other units or control markers in the Valley, and still bring Bolg into play?

No. See above.

csouth154 wrote:
Intuitively, it seems that "control" of non-settlement regions, including Front Gate, can only be claimed by the presence of friendly units.

Regions which contain neither Settlements nor Fortifications cannot be controlled. They can only be occupied.
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Craig S.
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Thanks for the response!

About this last bit, though...

Krieghund wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
[q="csouth154"]Intuitively, it seems that "control" of non-settlement regions, including Front Gate, can only be claimed by the presence of friendly units.

Regions which contain neither Settlements nor Fortifications cannot be controlled. They can only be occupied.


There is no mention of fortifications in the section on control in the rules, only settlements. I know that you speak with authority, however, so I'll assume this was omitted from the rule book in error.

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Craig S.
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Just for 100% clarity, though, you are saying that rules for control should apply to fortifications as well as settlements (this would only matter for Front Gate), and that shadow presence in Front Gate is NOT required for an instant victory? Only a control marker?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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csouth154 wrote:
There is no mention of fortifications in the section on control in the rules, only settlements. I know that you speak with authority, however, so I'll assume this was omitted from the rule book in error.

Yes, it's an omission. However control of Fortifications in regards to victory is mentioned at the bottom of page 9 and at the top of page 31.

csouth154 wrote:
Just for 100% clarity, though, you are saying that rules for control should apply to fortifications as well as settlements (this would only matter for Front Gate), and that shadow presence in Front Gate is NOT required for an instant victory? Only a control marker?

Yes.
 
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Craig S.
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Thanks again!
 
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