Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Sushi Go Party!» Forums » General

Subject: Is the "Fruit" Dessert absurdly strong? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Sherwin D.
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I've yet to play with Fruit, but I've done a some calculations that suggest that fruit is absurdly strong, giving points often exceeding the ideal values from Sashimi (3.33 per card), Miso Soup (3 pc), Tofu (3 pc), Green Tea Ice Cream (3 pc), Dumpling (3 pc), Wasabi/Salmon combo (3 pc) and sometimes even Eel (3.5 pc) or Onigiri (4pc) with none of the risk, setup, and/or dedication associated with these cards. It only falls short of the luck-intensive Wasabi/Squid combo (4.5 pc), but can likely be sustained over many more cards.

First, notice that the points are equivalent to 0/2/3/5/8/12 for 0/1/2/3/4/5+ of each fruit (bumping each category by 2 points to eliminate the negative points for 0 of a fruit since everyone scores in each category). There are 15 dessert cards (although smaller games will have no more than 10 of these cards show up), 2 copies of each "doubles fruit", and 3 copies of each unlike "fruit pair".

I evaluated the points associated with a random selection of fruits (at each card count). I have shared these values at the bottom of this post. These are rounded values from exact calculations, not simulations, although I could have made mistakes). These are average cases, sometimes your cards won't net you this many points, but sometimes you'll have the opportunity to make plays which score even more than these averages.

For anyone who has played a few games with fruit, please share your experiences!

Do the fruits stay in the pack for more than a pick or two?

Are these must pick cards (corner issues aside)?

Does the fun factor of this unique card outweigh possible balance issues?

# of Fruit Cards
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
Total Points
3.60
6.83
10.42
14.65
19.35
24.08
28.34
31.71
34.02
35.32
35.87
36.00
36.00
36.00
36.00
Marginal Points
3.60
3.23
3.60
4.23
4.70
4.73
4.26
3.38
2.31
1.30
0.55
0.13
0.00
0.00
0.00
Points Per Card
3.60
3.41
3.47
3.66
3.87
4.01
4.05
3.96
3.78
3.53
3.26
3.00
2.77
2.57
2.40
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Inky Bloc
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
In my experience, Fruit is taken by pretty much everyone when they can get it. The last game I played with 6 players had everyone just about equal on fruit (2 of one fruit, 1 of the others) which only netted them 1 point. I have never seen anyone do well on Fruit, nor seen anyone do poorly by having to eat multiple negatives.

For this reason I've actually thought of Fruit as underpowered, since the chance you'll get enough to make a difference is fairly low. Fruit is a dessert that more people tend to want to go for since it has individual negatives. With Pudding, you just need to get one more than the next person to avoid a negative, and with Green Tea Ice Cream there's no negative whatsoever.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sherwin D.
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
inkybloc wrote:
In my experience, Fruit is taken by pretty much everyone when they can get it. The last game I played with 6 players had everyone just about equal on fruit (2 of one fruit, 1 of the others) which only netted them 1 point. I have never seen anyone do well on Fruit, nor seen anyone do poorly by having to eat multiple negatives.

For this reason I've actually thought of Fruit as underpowered, since the chance you'll get enough to make a difference is fairly low. Fruit is a dessert that more people tend to want to go for since it has individual negatives. With Pudding, you just need to get one more than the next person to avoid a negative, and with Green Tea Ice Cream there's no negative whatsoever.


So this suggests proof is *inherently* powerful (you have to consider avoided negatives as gained points), but balanced by the fact that people aren't rushing for it. But this means, most fruit will be first or second picked, so it reduces interesting decisions (in my experience squid often goes quite fast, but there are fewer of them).

Remember, a 2/1/1 fruit allocation is 2 cards which increased your score a total of 7 points (from -6 which is the "fruitless" score to 1), which is 3.5 points, which is as good as eel without the risk of -3 (a single card still nets you 3 or 4 points over -6, which is way better than -3), and something you also have 3 full rounds to accomplish.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Webster
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fruit seemed balanced in my group. I don't remember players rushing to pick fruit either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Inky Bloc
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
sherwinpr wrote:
inkybloc wrote:
In my experience, Fruit is taken by pretty much everyone when they can get it. The last game I played with 6 players had everyone just about equal on fruit (2 of one fruit, 1 of the others) which only netted them 1 point. I have never seen anyone do well on Fruit, nor seen anyone do poorly by having to eat multiple negatives.

For this reason I've actually thought of Fruit as underpowered, since the chance you'll get enough to make a difference is fairly low. Fruit is a dessert that more people tend to want to go for since it has individual negatives. With Pudding, you just need to get one more than the next person to avoid a negative, and with Green Tea Ice Cream there's no negative whatsoever.


So this suggests proof is *inherently* powerful (you have to consider avoided negatives as gained points), but balanced by the fact that people aren't rushing for it. But this means, most fruit will be first or second picked, so it reduces interesting decisions (in my experience squid often goes quite fast, but there are fewer of them).

Remember, a 2/1/1 fruit allocation is 2 cards which increased your score a total of 7 points (from -6 which is the "fruitless" score to 1), which is 3.5 points, which is as good as eel without the risk of -3 (a single card still nets you 3 or 4 points over -6, which is way better than -3), and something you also have 3 full rounds to accomplish.


It looks good theoretically, and if someone runs away with all the Fruit it would be a disaster for the other players. However, the 2/1/1 is just 3.5 points per card at the end of the game, rather than a repeatable per-round bonus, and if everyone's trying for it, it's a rather unimpressive wash, compared to, say, avoiding -6 with one Pudding.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sherwin D.
United States
Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
inkybloc wrote:
sherwinpr wrote:
inkybloc wrote:
In my experience, Fruit is taken by pretty much everyone when they can get it. The last game I played with 6 players had everyone just about equal on fruit (2 of one fruit, 1 of the others) which only netted them 1 point. I have never seen anyone do well on Fruit, nor seen anyone do poorly by having to eat multiple negatives.

For this reason I've actually thought of Fruit as underpowered, since the chance you'll get enough to make a difference is fairly low. Fruit is a dessert that more people tend to want to go for since it has individual negatives. With Pudding, you just need to get one more than the next person to avoid a negative, and with Green Tea Ice Cream there's no negative whatsoever.


So this suggests proof is *inherently* powerful (you have to consider avoided negatives as gained points), but balanced by the fact that people aren't rushing for it. But this means, most fruit will be first or second picked, so it reduces interesting decisions (in my experience squid often goes quite fast, but there are fewer of them).

Remember, a 2/1/1 fruit allocation is 2 cards which increased your score a total of 7 points (from -6 which is the "fruitless" score to 1), which is 3.5 points, which is as good as eel without the risk of -3 (a single card still nets you 3 or 4 points over -6, which is way better than -3), and something you also have 3 full rounds to accomplish.


It looks good theoretically, and if someone runs away with all the Fruit it would be a disaster for the other players. However, the 2/1/1 is just 3.5 points per card at the end of the game, rather than a repeatable per-round bonus, and if everyone's trying for it, it's a rather unimpressive wash, compared to, say, avoiding -6 with one Pudding.


That's a good point, especially as the one pudding might be more like a 9 or 12 point move if the player you beat out is your main competitor (somewhat unlikely, but certainly possible).

All that said though, it still seems like you shouldn't pass up fruits too often (they're good whether you already have a bunch or none at all so far), whereas with the other cards (aside from maybe Squid), there are all sorts of situations where they're undesirable or at least less preferable than other alternatives.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Vestal
United States
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
One nice thing is that fruit (and to some extent, some of the other expansion cards) make squid nigiri no longer an automatic first pick, which can open up some more difficult decisions. For example, when we put in wasabi, not taking the squid first could set up someone for a 2-card, 9-point play - even though, in isolation, the fruit is a stronger 1-card play.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Webster
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
HexStarDragon wrote:
One nice thing is that fruit (and to some extent, some of the other expansion cards) make squid nigiri no longer an automatic first pick, which can open up some more difficult decisions. For example, when we put in wasabi, not taking the squid first could set up someone for a 2-card, 9-point play - even though, in isolation, the fruit is a stronger 1-card play.


Exactly this!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I had just been thinking about this the other day, and am glad to have found this thread.

I personally agree that the Fruit dessert is simply too strong and I'm half tempted to houserule it otherwise. Quite simply you should almost always grab every fruit card you can. I have played a few times now where others did not adopt this strategy, and I have consistently been able to cruise to a win on the back of the strong efficiency and points per card that the fruit offers. I pretty much will never pass on it.

For me personally, this makes things boring. Everyone should just play Fruit for their first card and go from there.

Has anyone come up with a system that they prefer? I've been considering changing Fruit so that it has no negative values and so you need to have at least 2 symbols to even hope to start earning points. It still makes for some strong scoring opportunities if you can really stack the same symbol. It also makes you care a little more about the symbols. As it is now, I rarely care since every Fruit is very good, and unless I've hit 5 of the same symbol already I'll want to play every Fruit card. (Even if you've hit 5 on one symbol, the next fruit card is still often worth playing as the other symbol may well be worth 3/4 points at that point). However, the downside to removing the negative points is that it means the first few fruit cards are worth very little, and so I do fear it won't help encourage people to play them much.

Anyone have any good suggestions for making fruit more fun to play with? I mostly want a card that fits in with most of the rest of them, where there is a real decision to be had about if I should play it or pass it. As is Fruit currently does not offer that type of choice. Fortunately, most of the rest of the cards do.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.