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B-17 Flying Fortress Leader» Forums » General

Subject: Up and Running Kickstarter rss

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Michael Reyes
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Well it just started. Got my copy ordered.
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John Connors
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And for the rest of us, a KS link.
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Victorius Deplorable
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I will definitely buy this game but when it hits retail.
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Richard A. Edwards
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I'll wait for the revised and corrected 2nd edition.
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Michael Sundborg
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Backed
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Michael McFall
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Quote:
I'll wait for the revised and corrected 2nd edition.


That's real nice of a Game Designer to come on to another game and make a comment like that. Good job.
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Richard A. Edwards
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michaelwmcfall wrote:
That's real nice of a Game Designer to come on to another game and make a comment like that. Good job.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that working in the industry meant I wasn't allowed to voice an opinion, even though as a customer I own a dozen DVG titles, including the very costly and still awaiting an upgrade kit, Tiger Leader.

In addition to being a designer and editor and tester, I'm also a game reviewer, and have been for over 35 years. Not to mention I'm also a customer with a large collection.

I will agree with you that the disgruntled customer and reviewer in me got the better of the designer who actually supports DVG games and has publicly applauded their efforts to improve their quality control issues.

With all the postings jumping on the Kickstarter bandwagon, I wanted to offer a counter opinion for customers to consider based on previous experience with DVG games. It's honestly what I plan on doing. I didn't say it disingenuously.

Now I understand why most designers (with some notable, welcomed, rare exceptions) don't post on BGG unless they're selling something.

I shall take your advice and refrain from further comment. Thanks.

Oh, and best wishes to DVG for this game! I honestly hope that they've solved their quality control issues so that this no doubt fine design will be lauded upon publication. In which case I'll rush out to buy a copy retail. Honestly!
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Michael McFall
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Quote:
I didn't realize that working in the industry meant I wasn't allowed to voice an opinion


Sure you can. You can voice your opinion, BUT when you visibly carry the title "Game Designer", you need to consider another way to do so.

Coming on to a webpage for another game designed by someone else is not the way to do that. Consider, if someone did that to you, it would not make you happy at all. Especially when he's trying to make a sale which helps everyone in the hobby by making it grow.

I've seen plenty of game designers voice opinions but they do it on another page or site and I sometimes read those, and respect those too.

I apologize for bashing on you (perhaps a little harshly). You left out one final category that you are and that's a "Player". A player can take a hit and stay in the game.

So please do not consider yourself unwelcome by me. If that's the case, welcome back.
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John Connors
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I'm an apparently uninformed buyer. I only own one of their games (Warfighter), and have long been looking at their "Leader" series. Is DVG known for publishing games with quality issues, and thus I should avoid this game, as it's a reasonable expectation that this game, too, will have quality issues?

 
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James Dalley
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th3tick wrote:
I'm an apparently uninformed buyer. I only own one of their games (Warfighter), and have long been looking at their "Leader" series. Is DVG known for publishing games with quality issues, and thus I should avoid this game, as it's a reasonable expectation that this game, too, will have quality issues?



There is one person who complains about the "poorly" written rules for EVERY game DVG publishes.

There are a few people unhappy with Tiger Leader. I greatly enjoy it. Maybe I'm getting a rule wrong somewhere :)

To the extent of my knowledge there has been little complaint about the Air Leader games, Hornet Leader, Thunderbolt Apache Leader, and Phantom Leader.
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Dean Brown
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SirRoke wrote:
michaelwmcfall wrote:
That's real nice of a Game Designer to come on to another game and make a comment like that. Good job.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that working in the industry meant I wasn't allowed to voice an opinion, even though as a customer I own a dozen DVG titles, including the very costly and still awaiting an upgrade kit, Tiger Leader.

In addition to being a designer and editor and tester, I'm also a game reviewer, and have been for over 35 years. Not to mention I'm also a customer with a large collection.

I will agree with you that the disgruntled customer and reviewer in me got the better of the designer who actually supports DVG games and has publicly applauded their efforts to improve their quality control issues.

With all the postings jumping on the Kickstarter bandwagon, I wanted to offer a counter opinion for customers to consider based on previous experience with DVG games. It's honestly what I plan on doing. I didn't say it disingenuously.

Now I understand why most designers (with some notable, welcomed, rare exceptions) don't post on BGG unless they're selling something.

I shall take your advice and refrain from further comment. Thanks.

Oh, and best wishes to DVG for this game! I honestly hope that they've solved their quality control issues so that this no doubt fine design will be lauded upon publication. In which case I'll rush out to buy a copy retail. Honestly!


While I'm a little dismayed when I read comments like this, as a Player I also understand where it's coming from. So definitely no offense on my part. I have been looking at some of the finished artwork, and assume that I will be seeing all of it from DVG before it is sent to the printer, so I will do my best to catch any graphic and production errors. There is no way for me to catch printer errors though. So hoping everything gets printed without an issue.
Dean
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Trevor De Boer
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Pledged at the Commander level.

Here's to a great campaign!
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Gerald Reston
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My only complaint is that the voiceover in the video is the same as Tiger Leader's.

My suggestion for any WWII Leader game after this would be to try and have a voice similar to this here from a classic PC WWII tactics game, if you please...
 
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Barry Miller
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I too, am looking forward very much to this game! I have an avid interest in 8th AF daylight bombing operations over German occupied Europe from 1943-1945. I must've put hundreds and hundreds of hours on the "B-17 Flying Fortress" computer game, by Microprose. And of course I own B-17: Queen of the Skies, and have pre-ordered Target for Today!

Plus, I own four other DVG games and am happy with their gameplay. So of course, getting this is a NO-BRAINER!

HOWEVER, having said all that, I must take slight umbrage with James' comment:
Quote:
"There is one person who complains about the "poorly" written rules for EVERY game DVG publishes."

I'm not entirely sure about the tone he intended with that comment, but I'll take a guess that its designed to warn against, and dismiss, those who have issues with DVG's rules.

Well, as I mentioned, I own only four DVG games. And regardless of my love for his games, count me as one of those who has an issue with at least three of the four rulebooks which came in the games I own. (I just got the fourth game, so can't comment on that rulebook, yet).

It isn't that they're bad, or poorly written, or lack examples. Rather, it's that the content is poorly organized, incomplete, and presumes that the player already has a familiarity with the game even before cracking the first page. Of course this presumption isn't stated. Plus also, he has a habit of embedding core rules inside the examples of play (and that's the only place where the rule will be mentioned).

I've commented elsewhere that, I get the feeling that because Dan has such an intimate familiarity with his games, he simply leaves stuff out of the rules while he's writing. I get the feeling that he takes cognitive leaps in his brain as he writes, resulting in him glossing over the discussion of mechanics and rules that are so familiar to him, that he doesn't realize the need to write them down. That's the feeling I get, anyway.

But unfortunately, that leaves us - perhaps a newbie player - with a rulebook littered with holes and assumptions, where the player is left to infer their own interpretation based only on common sense instead of what the designer may've otherwise intended. And yes, I've had these issues with every one of the three DVG rulebooks I've read. I sadly, and honestly, can't say that about any other publisher represented in my collection with multiple games.

So Dean, when I read your post above - that you're the designer - I had to do a double-take. I'm not aware how many of the games in the DVG line were designed by Dan or weren't. (He's designed each of the four I have). So while I want to emphasize that I love Dan's designs, it's refreshing to see another designer offer a game under the DVG banner. Given that, I don't know any other way to ask this question, but bluntly... will you be writing the rulebook?

Thx!

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Dean Brown
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Actually, I think I'm the third "non-Dan" designer for DVG (that I know of).

I did write the rulebook with a couple of editing sessions with DVG. It is complete and submitted with my prototype graphics. It still needs to be updated with the new artist graphics.

I have sent the game (with the rulebook) to playtesters to play, and made some updates based on their feedback, and DVGs.

EDIT: Dan has posted my rulebook on the Kickstarter site. So you can download it and view what I submitted. Keep in mind that this is NOT the final rulebook because it contains my prototype graphics, not the final game graphics. I am more than happy to answer any questions resulting from reading it.
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Victorius Deplorable
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grandvp124_seraph wrote:
My only complaint is that the voiceover in the video is the same as Tiger Leader's.

My suggestion for any WWII Leader game after this would be to try and have a voice similar to this here from a classic PC WWII tactics game, if you please...


Glory days of PC gaming.
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Michael Andersch
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Jdlly wrote:
There is one person who complains about the "poorly" written rules for EVERY game DVG publishes.


I think you allude to me...

And yes, I do so. For exactly the same reasons bgm1961 sums up brilliantly:

bgm1961 wrote:
[...]it's that the content is poorly organized, incomplete, and presumes that the player already has a familiarity with the game even before cracking the first page. Of course this presumption isn't stated. Plus also, he has a habit of embedding core rules inside the examples of play (and that's the only place where the rule will be mentioned).

I've commented elsewhere that, I get the feeling that because Dan has such an intimate familiarity with his games, he simply leaves stuff out of the rules while he's writing. I get the feeling that he takes cognitive leaps in his brain as he writes, resulting in him glossing over the discussion of mechanics and rules that are so familiar to him, that he doesn't realize the need to write them down. That's the feeling I get, anyway.

But unfortunately, that leaves us - perhaps a newbie player - with a rulebook littered with holes and assumptions, where the player is left to infer their own interpretation based only on common sense instead of what the designer may've otherwise intended.


Add his unwillingness to learn and improve:
E.g. PLD is about 90% the same game as HL:CAO. As a consequence, large parts of the rules are just copy/paste. Given that HL:CAO has been published long before PLD and tons of rules questions had shown up, I would have expected from a caring and responsible publisher that they address these issues and improve the rules. Not so DVG, who prefers to quickly throw it on the market with as little effort as possible, rushing on to the next game as long as there are enough DVG-fanboys who blindly hype and order everything that comes from them...

Don't get me wrong: All of their games are somehow playable with the enclosed rules. With more or less problems, but they are. But instead of taking the effort to make the understanding of his rules for his (hopefully valued) customers as smooth as possible, he shifts this effort to his customers, that have to deal with the above mentioned incompleteness, the insufficient playtesting,... thus multiplying these efforts and wasting the time of us all (I'd rather prefer to play a game than to think about how this and that might be intended...).
Good rules make complex matters easy. DVG's rules make simple games (that's what they basically are) more complicated than necessary.

My criticism may sound harsh, but their games are everything but cheap. If I pay a "premium" price, I expect at least a "complete" product. Mistakes happen, that's ok. But if you offer an "incomplete" product, there should be effort to fix it or at least to make sure that the same mistakes don't happen again (I guess that's something that is expected from all of us in our jobs).
But DVG doesn't do so nor at least show up here to answer rules questions (at least the more complicated ones - admittedly there are also some whose answers are clearly to be found in the rules.) - maybe he doesn't know the answers himself, as obviously playtesting might have been a little bit short...?

If a "newbie" publisher would act this way, some things might be forgiveable. But DVG is everything but new to this business, so I would expect that they learn from their mistakes.

So my personal consequence is that I stopped all my KS-Supports for them, as well as I withdrew my preorders (and regarding Tiger Leader I'm happy to have done so). But in case B17-FFL should prove to be a design enough different from HL:CAO / PLD / TAL and if I get the impression that it is well tested and presented in an adequate way (rule design and completeness, quality of material,...) I might go and buy it at a retail store (which btw. is cheaper than taking part in the KS campaign, at least in Germany).
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Beau McDaniel
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I'm sorry but can someone please explain the $75 price tag on this game? The game is, for the most part, cards. DVG has always been VERY proud of their games, but for the components you're getting this seems to be close to double what any other respectable publisher would ask for.
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Richard Dewsbery
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Does the $75 include shipping? If not, how much will EU shipping be? Without knowing up front, it makes it too much of a leap in the dark for me.
 
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Vladimir Lehotai
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Phantom Leader's and Warfighter's shipping to EU was $30, IIRC.
 
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Dean Brown
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EU shipping cost $25.
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Martin Gallo
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There is also some cardboard. Things like cardboard and cards cost money to print and handle and ship. DVG generally uses thicker cardboard than a lot of companies and that stuff is not cheap (its price increases non-linearly with thickness).

If you do not like it, start your own publishing company and show the world how to do it right.
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Beau McDaniel
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martimer wrote:
There is also some cardboard. Things like cardboard and cards cost money to print and handle and ship. DVG generally uses thicker cardboard than a lot of companies and that stuff is not cheap (its price increases non-linearly with thickness).

If you do not like it, start your own publishing company and show the world how to do it right.


Maybe but other companies seem to use fairly thick cardboard and add in wooden pieces or miniatures for cheaper. Heck Blood Rage which has dozens and dozens of amazing miniatures, nearly 200 cards, and a giant thick board is cheaper than this deck of cards! I understand there's something to be said for the ordering power behind coolminiornot compared to dvg, but this smells price gougey to me.

Well just because I don't like something doesn't mean I have to go and do it myself or remain silent. That's a logical fallacy there. Just because I don't like what the president is doing doesn't mean I have to either become the president and show others how it's done or remain silent on any issue regarding it
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Martin Gallo
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You sidestepped the "economy of scale" part of production. Blood Rage probably had a MUCH larger print run as well as funding level.

You are right that you have a right to buy or not buy based on price. I was just trying to arm your opinion with some facts that you may not be aware of. Lots of people whine about things they do not understand.

I reserve the right to gripe about whiners, by the way. All opinions are valid, but discussions are more meaningful with facts.
 
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Gerald Reston
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Dean - You'd better convince DVG to update the Kickstarter page. As the $45K stretch goal has been achieved!
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