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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Is it just me... rss

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Matt Brown
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..but does second edition cause us MoM fans to have some reservations on whether or not it is worth getting?

I knew after the Descent app was released that MoM was a logical candidate to get the app treatment next and I was just hoping for an app, not an entirely new game and conversion kit that has to be purchased to use it. From what I can see, the game system has been dumbed down in many areas. I know things need to be changed to accommodate the app, but it appears some elements of MoM that made it unique compared to the other Arkham Files games have been removed. Case in point: investigators no longer appear to be customizable and the interchangeable investigator skill cards and starting item cards appear to have been removed and replaced with just a static character sheet much like what is used in the other Arkham games (and Descent and IA for that matter). To me that removes the RPG-ish aspects that MoM had.

Also, it appears that the core box has far less physical content that the 1st ed core box did. So with an MSRP of $100, it just seems like we are paying more for less. And no matter how you size it up, there is no way the app in it's released state will justify the extra $20-$30 premium over the 1st ed. I just feel like FFG has found yet another way to rip off their fans and prey upon their devotion to the hobby.
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Andrew Shegda
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It's not FFG. It's Asmodee. They're to blame for the higher price. I won't be buying it and agree with you.
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Enon Sci
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otakuon wrote:
From what I can see, the game system has been dumbed down in many areas. I know things need to be changed to accommodate the app, but it appears some elements of MoM that made it unique compared to the other Arkham Files games have been removed. Case in point: investigators no longer appear to be customizable and the interchangeable investigator skill cards and starting item cards appear to have been removed and replaced with just a static character sheet much like what is used in the other Arkham games (and Descent and IA for that matter). To me that removes the RPG-ish aspects that MoM had.


Skill cards might be gone, but the most recent preview specifically explores item cards. Starting items (and acquirable items), plus spells, are definitely in.

What other simplifications are you seeing?

Quote:
Also, it appears that the core box has far less physical content that the 1st ed core box did. So with an MSRP of $100, it just seems like we are paying more for less. And no matter how you size it up, there is no way the app in it's released state will justify the extra $20-$30 premium over the 1st ed. I just feel like FFG has found yet another way to rip off their fans and prey upon their devotion to the hobby.


When did 1e come out? Did prices stay consistent? If so, they were probably losing money, as manufacturing costs likely rose with inflation over that time period. I'm not defending the pricing so much as pointing out well worn economic realities when it comes to the marketplace -- prices rise, and WILL continue to rise over the expanse of your life (3% a year, generally speaking).

Now whether this is an equitable price or not is pure speculation for anybody that doesn't have an indepth understanding of FFG/Asmodee's manufacturing model. The best we can do is ask ourselves whether what is provided seems worth it to us.

For me? Yes, but only due to the endless procedural permutations the app offers to the scenario structure (permutations which will only grow as future expansion content gets added into the mix).
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Brian Bowles
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Let me start by saying that I too have a little apprehension about app based games. Basically, not being to fond of games that require something not in the box (like a tablet). I also don't like one shots like Pandemic Legacy or Time Stories. As I don't want to see the bulk of games go to those formats, The ones that do I can simply not purchase.

Getting back to MOM 2.0 though, I don't see this as that type of situation. First it upgrades all your Mini's and tiles form the original to work with 2.0, that's great. Second, if you don't want to use the app and you have 1.0 you can simply go back to the old rules. I'm sure as a clever Keeper you could work most of the content of 2.0 into a game of 1.0. I see this as a win win. Now if you do not have the original MOM, this might be more of a problem, but if all that's bothering someone is the app, then they should already have the original MoM.I'm just thrilled to be getting new investigators, monsters and tiles.

Also, as I have said elsewhere, we don't know much about the app yet. It may be possible to add homemade rules and content to the app. I just think everyone should hold off passing judgement until they actually see how this all works. I mean making a expansion with an app you won't buy is no different that not making an expansion at all. Either way you still will have your money to buy something else.
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Matt Brown
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Anarchosyn wrote:
What other simplifications are you seeing?


Tied to the removal of character customization, it appears that the once per game abilities have all been removed from each investigators as well. Also, the removal of the Overseer will invariably mean that there wont' be as much interaction between the investigators and the "opposing" side. It also appears that the clue cards are more generic now. I know they say they are "scenario specific", but the cards don't appear to reference any specific aspects of a given scenario. Combat also appears to have simplified. Of course we will have to wait and see what all the app does.

Anarchosyn wrote:

When did 1e come out? Did prices stay consistent? If so, they were probably losing money, as manufacturing costs likely rose with inflation over that time period. I'm not defending the pricing so much as pointing out well worn economic realities when it comes to the marketplace -- prices rise, and WILL continue to rise over the expanse of your life (3% a year, generally speaking).

Now whether this is an equitable price or not is pure speculation for anybody that doesn't have an indepth understanding of FFG/Asmodee's manufacturing model. The best we can do is ask ourselves whether what is provided seems worth it to us.

For me? Yes, but only due to the endless procedural permutations the app offers to the scenario structure (permutations which will only grow as future expansion content gets added into the mix).


I am sure FFG will sell future scenarios as IAP, so the app will grow over time but it will cost us. But I am just not seeing how they can really justify that the value of this box is $100 even considering inflation and knowing that there is less physical material in the box (and it does not cost that much to develop an app...certainly not so much that they can justify that it adds a premium to the price of the boxed game).
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Matt E.

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Going to buy the hell outta this.

Let's not forget the huge content that exists for the original, what with some EXCELLENT fan made content. I've still not played through all of that.

They didn't have to throw a single bone to us 1st edition owners but they did and if you weren't aware, that stuff is included with the base 2nd edition game.

As for the app, get used to that, going to more games of this type (complicated co-ops) that will have that in the future. I already use an electronic device with my gaming for ambient music, so I'm not losing my mind over this.

If you don't like the loss of the 1 vs X then I get that.

However as the guy who was always the keeper, I'm happy to be on the other side of things.

Besides, we can always play 1st edition at anytime.
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What evidence do we have that there is much less content in the box? I think the pictures on the FF site are misleading because they don't show the as yet unrevealed monster figures. I have yet to buy a FF game that had a disappointing number of pieces in the box, and the list of content from a German site looks pretty good to me.
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Jason Sly
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otakuon wrote:
I am sure FFG will sell future scenarios as IAP, so the app will grow over time but it will cost us. But I am just not seeing how they can really justify that the value of this box is $100 even considering inflation and knowing that there is less physical material in the box (and it does not cost that much to develop an app...certainly not so much that they can justify that it adds a premium to the price of the boxed game).

What are you basing this on exactly? How much do you think this app took to develop? I'd say creating an app that can unpredictably and quasi-intelligently(it can't just randomly spit things out at you, there has to quite a lot of logic to present you a functional house and working narrative) oppose you is going to take some work. No, it's not creating a fully functioning board game port, but it's not a weekend job for a couple kids in their dorm room either. That statement just comes off as pretty obnoxious to the programmers and 3d modelers and graphic designers who have probably been working on this for many, many months.
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Arthur Peterson
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I'm sure it's not just you, but the fact that we can now play full coop (w/o a Keeper) means that this game is going to get played a LOT. I love 1st edition. LOVE it. But it only gets played about once a year due to the complex setup and no one but me willing to play the Keeper. That's all about to change. Based on $-spent per play, 2nd edition is going to be a lot cheaper than 1st.

Oh, and app development costs a TON.
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Matt Brown
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For starters, from what has been shown so far, there aren't any 3D graphics or any content that complex in this app. In fact, the app just re-uses the graphic assets of the physical product for the most part. It is using the same "game" engine that the Descent app used. Regardless of which app was developed first, they already have that platform in place, so it wouldn't have cost them millions or even 100s of thousands of dollars to develop each one. In fact, even developing the base platform itself would not even come close to that. Plus, the "AI" for these sorts of co-op games are very basic. We know this from co-op games that don't even require apps to work. Of course the app would allow you to do a lot more than an analog "AI", but it's not like implementing a digital version of an analog "AI" is all that different. Of course an app allows you to expand what an analog "AI" is capable of doing by not limiting you to physical materials (such as cards), but adding data to rows of tables is not hard. Look, I am not saying I don't like the app. In fact, if they just released the app by itself for $10 without even making a second edition, I would not be arguing about this. But people seem to have this notion that the app is some complex mechanism that is worth a $20 or more premium over just the cardboard game by itself. I am only questioning how FFG justifies a $100 MSRP for this product when it contains less physical components than its predecessor (comparing the content list shown on the french publisher site vs the contents of the 1st ed cord game).

The app alone cannot justify this price increase. And I am speaking here as someone who is educated as, and works as, a software engineer. Building apps like this are really not that expensive or difficult. If it was for FFG, then they are doing something wrong. Plus, when FFG had the job postings up for app developers, they were not paying them very much. If I recall, the compensation was below $50k/year which is peanuts in the software development industry. And for all we know, they outsourced the coding anyway to oversees contractors who work for even cheaper.
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Randolph Bookman
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Seems a little early for a remake of this but whatever. If it is anything like the 3rd edition of Fury of Dracula I'll stay away. Combat might have been better but everything else just didn't work for me at all.
 
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Dean L
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otakuon wrote:
For starters, from what has been shown so far, there aren't any 3D graphics or any content that complex in this app. In fact, the app just re-uses the graphic assets of the physical product for the most part. It is using the same "game" engine that the Descent app used. Regardless of which app was developed first, they already have that platform in place, so it wouldn't have cost them millions or even 100s of thousands of dollars to develop each one. In fact, even developing the base platform itself would not even come close to that. Plus, the "AI" for these sorts of co-op games are very basic. We know this from co-op games that don't even require apps to work. Of course the app would allow you to do a lot more than an analog "AI", but it's not like implementing a digital version of an analog "AI" is all that different. Of course an app allows you to expand what an analog "AI" is capable of doing by not limiting you to physical materials (such as cards), but adding data to rows of tables is not hard. Look, I am not saying I don't like the app. In fact, if they just released the app by itself for $10 without even making a second edition, I would not be arguing about this. But people seem to have this notion that the app is some complex mechanism that is worth a $20 or more premium over just the cardboard game by itself. I am only questioning how FFG justifies a $100 MSRP for this product when it contains less physical components than its predecessor (comparing the content list shown on the french publisher site vs the contents of the 1st ed cord game).

The app alone cannot justify this price increase. And I am speaking here as someone who is educated as, and works as, a software engineer. Building apps like this are really not that expensive or difficult. If it was for FFG, then they are doing something wrong. Plus, when FFG had the job postings up for app developers, they were not paying them very much. If I recall, the compensation was below $50k/year which is peanuts in the software development industry. And for all we know, they outsourced the coding anyway to oversees contractors who work for even cheaper.


Sure, the engineers aren't paid much but need to be paid something. Plus testers and so on. You said yourself it probably accounts for a $10 premium which is fair. The other $10 comes from inflation and increased costs.

I'm guessing you never got any of the expansions for the first edition either? Because there is far, far less in those boxes than in the base game, even accounting for the lower price.
 
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Matt Brown
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I have all the original MoM content including the two expansions and all the POD scenarios. Of course, back then, ANA/FFG had not yet implemented their resale manipulation scheme so the discounts that retailers were able to offer at that time brought their price down to a more realistic number. Considering the current situation, $100 seems even more like overvaluation of this. But that is besides the point. To be honest, I am more perturbed by the fact that changes were made that didn't seem to be necessary even when taking the app into consideration (such as removing character customization and replacing it with static character sheets).
 
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Chris J Davis
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otakuon wrote:
I have all the original MoM content including the two expansions and all the POD scenarios. Of course, back then, ANA/FFG had not yet implemented their resale manipulation scheme so the discounts that retailers were able to offer at that time brought their price down to a more realistic number. Considering the current situation, $100 seems even more like overvaluation of this. But that is besides the point. To be honest, I am more perturbed by the fact that changes were made that didn't seem to be necessary even when taking the app into consideration (such as removing character customization and replacing it with static character sheets).


In the name of streamlining.

I see the wisdom in it. With the customisation, often one choice was almost always clearly better than the other. And even so, if you want to play a character with different stats then just... play a different character. The dual stat cards were needed just as much as the skill sliders in Arkham Horror; they're just extra rules overhead with minimal gain.
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Matt Brown
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Well, along with the streamlining, MoM 2e has now resorted to dice chucking instead of the nuances of the skill check system in the original game. Which with the app seems like it would have been easier to keep this system as it allowed for just a pass/fail outcome. Now you have to input the number of successes that you did or did not achieve. That does not seem very "streamlined" as opposed to just having two options: pass or fail (as in the Descent app).
 
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Chris J Davis
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otakuon wrote:
Well, along with the streamlining, MoM 2e has now resorted to dice chucking instead of the nuances of the skill check system in the original game. Which with the app seems like it would have been easier to keep this system as it allowed for just a pass/fail outcome. Now you have to input the number of successes that you did or did not achieve. That does not seem very "streamlined" as opposed to just having two options: pass or fail (as in the Descent app).


Nuances? You yourself have just said the original game had nothing but a binary pass/fail outcome.

Streamlining in one area does not mean that every single aspect of the rest of the game has to also follow suit (otherwise, why not just roll a die and if you roll 4+, you win?). Why is binary pass/fail better than the (actually, and in reality) more nuanced system of allowing different levels of success result in different outcomes? If the new system adds much more to the gameplay with minimal rules overhead, then why not include it?
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Jay Eye
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Quote:
Now you have to input the number of successes that you did or did not achieve.


Where do people get that nonsense? This concern was already brought up before the release of Descent RtL and proven wrong. No manual input of dice-rolls, just inform the app, when a monster is defeated.

I prefer dice combat over the clunky and often comical card-drawing-system of MoM 1st edition anyway. Never thought, someone would think of the card drawing as the superior system.
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Dean L
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otakuon wrote:
Well, along with the streamlining, MoM 2e has now resorted to dice chucking instead of the nuances of the skill check system in the original game. Which with the app seems like it would have been easier to keep this system as it allowed for just a pass/fail outcome. Now you have to input the number of successes that you did or did not achieve.


Even if that's true (can you point me to it?), having two buttons on the screen and hitting pass/fail or having eight buttons marked 0 to 7+ and hitting one of those is no easier or hard, assuming you have the ability to count to seven.
 
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Arthur Peterson
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Exilfranke wrote:
Never thought, someone would think of the card drawing as the superior system.


I would trade dice away for the MoM combat cards in just about every game I own. They tend to be the highlight of the game.
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Jay Eye
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Unusual opinion, though.
 
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Chris J Davis
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FWIW, I like the combat system too.
 
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Jay Eye
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Okay, but DO you consider it superior to dice rolling skill checks with X-Wing like approach of afterwards dice turning to optimize the outcome (in this case investing found clues to turn a investigator
sign into an elder sign?)
 
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Chris J Davis
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Exilfranke wrote:
Okay, but DO you consider it superior to dice rolling skill checks with X-Wing like approach of afterwards dice turning to optimize the outcome (in this case investing found clues to turn a investigator
sign into an elder sign?)


I don't think the two systems are mutually exclusive. What I like about the card-based system is the flavour text describing how you actually attack your enemy. That could still be combined with a more sophisticated dice-based system.
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This isn't Sickstarter. You have more than thirty days to make your decision *and* can even read reviews of the product *before* you have pay for it. Is there any reason to speculate on the game when we will have a better idea when it's out?

(Ooo... CSI has this at an additional FIVE PERCENT if you pre-order. BUY NOW.)
 
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Enon Sci
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Sam and Max wrote:


(Ooo... CSI has this at an additional FIVE PERCENT if you pre-order. BUY NOW.)


Quoi? What is this supposed to mean?

Are you saying the normal discount is 10%, so their 15% is a deal? If so, the $84.99 is being offered by other online retailers as well.

Cardhaus has it for $76 and change, but their shipping rates are higher.

Anyhoo, just curious.. I opted for CSI myself.
 
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