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Kevin
England
Hull
East Riding of Yorkshire
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But we have to change the rules because Monopoly's so boring!
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ok so I have only played the game a couple of times and I'm thinking of showing it to 4 new players. I know after my first play I hated the game and it took me another play to see it as the great game it is. The reason I hated it was the provost (obviously) and being on the receiving end of him by one or even multiple players, manipulating him to screw me over.

I know the provost is integral to the screwage aspect of the game but when learning the game or even like me after a couple of plays, it just seems nasty if you get ganged up on by several players moving the provost back on you, and preventing you from taking your action/actions.

I was thinking there must be a way to lessen the nastier side of this for noobs to the game.

Now I can think up some,off the top of my head (and not having a full understanding of the game, these are probably lame hence me asking the question) my initial thoughts are making him only able to move 1-2 places back or forth. Another could be, once a player has moved him back its only possible for another player to move him forward, (or vice versa) after which, no one can move him but I was wondering if anyone had any time and tested kinder variants, they could suggest before I break the game with my own sledgehammer house rules.

Or should I just leave him out completely which kind of nullifies 2 action spaces on the board.
 
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Ken Bush
United States
West Linn
Oregon
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The reason you're getting screwed by the provost is that you are trying to take too risky of a building out by the bailiff. You won't get screwed if you take the provost, nor will you get screwed if you work in concert with other players to take the risky locations near the bailiff, and if you are last in passing order you can have the last word on the provost, thus protecting yourself.

I play against a lot of opponents who think the provost is the way to keep me from doing well. It doesn't work. Do your worker placements so that provost movement hurts them too. You can't look at every space behind the bailiff as available at the start of a turn. If you take 2 or 3 spaces immediately behind the bailiff you're just plain inviting someone to provost on you. Use your turn order to your advantage, lure others into the front with you. And when all else fails, take the provost first, then they won't know if you're going forward or backward.

When I hear "kinder" I think what they mean is "how can I get what I want all the time". In a good strategy game it takes finesse, otherwise it's not a strategy game, it's just a land grab.




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Adam Kazimierczak
United States
Falmouth
Maine
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Play a Stefan Feld game.
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trevor

Missouri
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Well personally I think the game is perfect as is....

But this game is over 10 years old and there are probably about 40+ variants threads dealing with the provost so you could start there whistle
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Paulo Santoro
Brazil
São Paulo
São Paulo
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Read this? Then read it again! cool

klbush wrote:
The reason you're getting screwed by the provost is that you are trying to take too risky of a building out by the bailiff. You won't get screwed if you take the provost, nor will you get screwed if you work in concert with other players to take the risky locations near the bailiff, and if you are last in passing order you can have the last word on the provost, thus protecting yourself.

I play against a lot of opponents who think the provost is the way to keep me from doing well. It doesn't work. Do your worker placements so that provost movement hurts them too. You can't look at every space behind the bailiff as available at the start of a turn. If you take 2 or 3 spaces immediately behind the bailiff you're just plain inviting someone to provost on you. Use your turn order to your advantage, lure others into the front with you. And when all else fails, take the provost first, then they won't know if you're going forward or backward.

When I hear "kinder" I think what they mean is "how can I get what I want all the time". In a good strategy game it takes finesse, otherwise it's not a strategy game, it's just a land grab.




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Steve
United States
California
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Instead of changing the game just warn them about the risks of playing toward the front. Include the possibility that opponents may work together against someone who does that. I always do that for new players.
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John Bradshaw
United Kingdom
Newcastle Upon Tyne
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bigGameGeek wrote:
Well personally I think the game is perfect as is....


...is the correct answer!

Caylus is a masterpiece of game design - and the tension of the Provost piece is surely one of it's essential features. It's great when you place your first worker down on the Provost building - the feeling of "control" is excellent! No-one now dare place at the front until you do - but of course, you have used up one of your very valuable actions...

If players gang up on you to "Provost" you out of action(s), at least they're spending scarce cash - you're still getting a benefit.

Of course, it's your game and you can play it with any house rules you care to dream up, but I suspect you'll be playing something inferior to Caylus, one of the finest games ever designed. Why mess with it?!

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david landes
United States
oak hill
Virginia
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stevepop wrote:
Instead of changing the game just warn them about the risks of playing toward the front. Include the possibility that opponents may work together against someone who does that. I always do that for new players.


I agree that warning is the best strategy. The provost is what makes this game good.. and is also critically important in setting the pace/length of the overall game.

If you are dead-set on making changes.. maybe give the noobs their coin back so they still lose the action but not the money..
 
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Nate Dorward
Canada
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Perhaps simply play Lords of Waterdeep, which mimics a lot of the features of Caylus but ditches the provost/bailiff mechanic?

I don't much like LoD but it might suit your group if you want a more sedate worker placement game.
 
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Liallan G
United States
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klbush wrote:
If you take 2 or 3 spaces immediately behind the bailiff you're just plain inviting someone to provost on you.


This. (Is provost now a verb?) I don't yet know all the finesse in using the provost, but I knew better than to do this the first time I played.

But before I read the other posts, my first thought was wondering if you just don't like being screwed. In which case, I'd say it's not your kind of game.

Or, are just wanting to tone it down a bit until you get a couple of games in? In which case I think either of your ideas will work, to include the provost and keep some of that, but not to as great of extent. Sometimes it's nice if you don't screw with the newb too much, or at least if you do, say something, maybe explain what they're doing to cause the issue - they can at least then learn a lesson from it.

But if you need to adjust this beyond the first couple of games I'd say it's probably just not your game. Of course, you own it and can do what you want. No one here can tell you not to change the rules, but you can tell what the opinion is. laugh

 
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