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Subject: Qin Shi Huang + Monuments and Great Wall rss

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-=::) Dante (::=-
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Qin Shi Huang - The Great Wall - May Build the Great Wall in his city even if unrevealed (pull from the deck). The cost is reduced by 1 Culture token and any 2 resources.

Monuments - 1) Reveal the top Wonder 2) Pick a Wonder; only you may build it and you do so at no action cost

One of the players interpreted this to mean that Qin's special ability could not be combined with Monuments to build the Great Wall at no action cost if it wasn't revealed, while others felt that should be allowed.
 
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George
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Qin's ability can combine with Monuments. His ability says he can build it even if unrevealed. So that means revealed or unrevealed. Monuments reveals the Wonder so no issue there.

His ability gives the cost reduction. Monuments gives the free action benefit. No conflict.

The only wrinkle I can think of is if another player used Monuments to reserve the Great Wall. Qin's ability says he can build it if unrevealed, but doesn't say he can override another player reserving it with Monuments. In that case, I think he is out of luck.
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soosy wrote:
Qin's ability can combine with Monuments. His ability says he can build it even if unrevealed. So that means revealed or unrevealed. Monuments reveals the Wonder so no issue there.
But what if the revealed wonder is not the Great Wall?

I would say no, you cannot combine those abilities. It says Qin Shi Huang may "build" the Great Wall even if unrevealed, not "pick" the Great Wall even if unrevealed.
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Tor Gjerde
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Fielmann wrote:
soosy wrote:
Qin's ability can combine with Monuments. His ability says he can build it even if unrevealed. So that means revealed or unrevealed. Monuments reveals the Wonder so no issue there.
But what if the revealed wonder is not the Great Wall?

I would say no, you cannot combine those abilities. It says Qin Shi Huang may "build" the Great Wall even if unrevealed, not "pick" the Great Wall even if unrevealed.

With Monuments, you reveal one more card, and then reserve any one of the available cards (i.e. revealed, but not reserved by another player or already built). The newly revealed card has no special status; the reason why another card is revealed is to ensure that at least one Wonder card is available.

Qin Shi Huang’s ability negates the distinction between revealed and unrevealed, so the only thing that may prevent him from reserving the Great Wall with Monuments is that it is already built or reserved by another player.

Edit: see second thought below.
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George
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Fielmann wrote:
soosy wrote:
Qin's ability can combine with Monuments. His ability says he can build it even if unrevealed. So that means revealed or unrevealed. Monuments reveals the Wonder so no issue there.
But what if the revealed wonder is not the Great Wall?

I would say no, you cannot combine those abilities. It says Qin Shi Huang may "build" the Great Wall even if unrevealed, not "pick" the Great Wall even if unrevealed.


I think I missed the subtlety of the original question.

I agree that Qin CAN'T pull the Great Wall out of the deck with Monuments, unless of course it happens to be the top card that Monuments reveals. Monuments must pick a revealed Wonder to reserve and it is only that one that can be built at no action cost.

I interpret Qin's ability to pull the Great Wall if unrevealed to only occur when the player is ready to build.

So when I said they combine I really meant they don't conflict. Not that they combine into something more than each power says individually.

Not sure if I'm disagreeing with Tor now or not (we both playtested the expansion) since this shade of meaning is really hard to type out succinctly. (For me at least.)
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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soosy wrote:
Not sure if I'm disagreeing with Tor now or not


You are.

I've pm'd Christian so I'm sure he'll chime in with a ruling here before too long.

I suspect Tor has it right but we'll find out soon enough I'm sure.
 
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I agree with Tor and George - I'm not seeing where the conflict lies?
 
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Kelanen wrote:
I agree with Tor and George - I'm not seeing where the conflict lies?
The conflict is about what the correct ruling is in the following situation:

The player who has Qin Shi Huang as his leader, gets the advance Monuments. He reveals the top card of the wonder deck. After that, the Great Wall is still unrevealed in the wonder deck. May that player take the Great Wall, reserve it, and later build it at no action cost?
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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Fielmann wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
I agree with Tor and George - I'm not seeing where the conflict lies?
The conflict is about what the correct ruling is in the following situation:

The player who has Qin Shi Huang as his leader, gets the advance Monuments. He reveals the top card of the wonder deck. After that, the Great Wall is still unrevealed in the wonder deck. May that player take the Great Wall, reserve it, and later build it at no action cost?


^This. Tor says yes, George says no, and hopefully we'll soon get a final ruling from Christian.
 
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soosy wrote:
Fielmann wrote:
soosy wrote:
Qin's ability can combine with Monuments. His ability says he can build it even if unrevealed. So that means revealed or unrevealed. Monuments reveals the Wonder so no issue there.
But what if the revealed wonder is not the Great Wall?

I would say no, you cannot combine those abilities. It says Qin Shi Huang may "build" the Great Wall even if unrevealed, not "pick" the Great Wall even if unrevealed.


I think I missed the subtlety of the original question.

So did I; I was misled by the focus on the identity of the exact card that is drawn when picking the Monuments advance, and was mainly attempting to clarify that this card just joins the pool of revealed cards.

soosy wrote:
I agree that Qin CAN'T pull the Great Wall out of the deck with Monuments, unless of course it happens to be the top card that Monuments reveals. Monuments must pick a revealed Wonder to reserve and it is only that one that can be built at no action cost.

I interpret Qin's ability to pull the Great Wall if unrevealed to only occur when the player is ready to build.

So when I said they combine I really meant they don't conflict. Not that they combine into something more than each power says individually.

Not sure if I'm disagreeing with Tor now or not (we both playtested the expansion) since this shade of meaning is really hard to type out succinctly. (For me at least.)

When I thought closer about it, I came to the same conclusion as you: Qin’s ability does not apply to the picking of a Wonder card to reserve. The reason for this has not been mentioned yet: the card text “May Build the Great Wall in his city” may only apply to actions specific to the city he is in, while reserving a card is not done by a city, but by a player. If the player manages to reserve the card through normal means, the cost reduction part of the power can be used in the actual building of it.
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Jonathan Challis
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Fielmann wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
I agree with Tor and George - I'm not seeing where the conflict lies?
The conflict is about what the correct ruling is in the following situation:

The player who has Qin Shi Huang as his leader, gets the advance Monuments. He reveals the top card of the wonder deck. After that, the Great Wall is still unrevealed in the wonder deck. May that player take the Great Wall, reserve it, and later build it at no action cost?


Ah thank you!

Well Tor and George are now in agreement, and me also (although I only started playtesting after Civilisations was complete).

Monuments whilst Qin is in play won't let you pick it out of the deck to reserve (although you can reserve it, if it's one of the revealed cards) - but Qin has no impact here either way.

Qin lets you build it from the deck, not anything else.
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Michał Kowalczyk
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I have another question regarding whole subject. Does Qin Shi Huang can build Great Wall without engineering or monuments technology, even if card require one of them (engineering) ?
 
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Tor Gjerde
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miguelpl90 wrote:
I have another question regarding whole subject. Does Qin Shi Huang can build Great Wall without engineering or monuments technology, even if card require one of them (engineering) ?

No; all requirements that are not explicitly mentioned remain in effect.
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Christian Marcussen
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Quote:
soosy wrote:
I agree that Qin CAN'T pull the Great Wall out of the deck with Monuments, unless of course it happens to be the top card that Monuments reveals. Monuments must pick a revealed Wonder to reserve and it is only that one that can be built at no action cost.

I interpret Qin's ability to pull the Great Wall if unrevealed to only occur when the player is ready to build.

So when I said they combine I really meant they don't conflict. Not that they combine into something more than each power says individually.

Not sure if I'm disagreeing with Tor now or not (we both playtested the expansion) since this shade of meaning is really hard to type out succinctly. (For me at least.)

When I thought closer about it, I came to the same conclusion as you: Qin’s ability does not apply to the picking of a Wonder card to reserve. The reason for this has not been mentioned yet: the card text “May Build the Great Wall in his city” may only apply to actions specific to the city he is in, while reserving a card is not done by a city, but by a player. If the player manages to reserve the card through normal means, the cost reduction part of the power can be used in the actual building of it.


Hi. This is the correct answer.

Thanks
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