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Subject: Freddie Gray case: Charges against three remaining officers dropped rss

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Steven Woodcock
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It's a start:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md...

Now impeach (recall?) her ass and sue the city for damages. Misuse of power AGAINST the police is every bit as corrupt as misuse of power BY the police.



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Ferretman wrote:
It's a start:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md...

Now impeach (recall?) her ass and sue the city for damages. Misuse of power AGAINST the police is every bit as corrupt as misuse of power BY the police.


yeah Freddie Gray just got into a police van, unhurt, and then somehow his spine broke before he got out of it

amazing how these things just sort of happen
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Boaty McBoatface
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mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
It's a start:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md...

Now impeach (recall?) her ass and sue the city for damages. Misuse of power AGAINST the police is every bit as corrupt as misuse of power BY the police.


yeah Freddie Gray just got into a police van, unhurt, and then somehow his spine broke before he got out of it

amazing how these things just sort of happen
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).

 
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slatersteven wrote:
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).


Of course there was no evidence as to what happened. The police controlled what evidence was collected as to the time he spent in the van, and surprisingly, they found nothing which would incriminate one of their own, so useful idiots like Ferret can bleat about how the police were ill-done-by, when in fact what is known for sure is this: Freddie Gray went into a police van in relative good health, and came out of it with a broken spine, and soon afterwards died from that injury, and at no point during Gray's time in the van was that van in, say, a collision or accident. The only people in the van with Gray were cops.

We already saw this happen with Michael Brown, where the Justice Department was forced to conclude on the basis of evidence collected that Darren Wilson could not be charged with a crime. Of course they did, because they were forced to rely on the evidence that the Ferguson police collected, and the police protect their own.
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Ferretman wrote:
It's a start:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/freddie-gray/bs-md...

Now impeach (recall?) her ass and sue the city for damages. Misuse of power AGAINST the police is every bit as corrupt as misuse of power BY the police.



Ferret


Just because the charges were dismissed, does not mean it did not warrant an investigation and/or trial.

If it is looked at and determined that it was that obvious it should not go to trial, then maybe something is there. Then you'd have to prove that similar cases have not been prosecuted in the past. (in that locale)
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galad2003 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).


Of course there was no evidence as to what happened. The police controlled what evidence was collected as to the time he spent in the van, and surprisingly, they found nothing which would incriminate one of their own, so useful idiots like Ferret can bleat about how the police were ill-done-by, when in fact what is known for sure is this: Freddie Gray went into a police van in relative good health, and came out of it with a broken spine, and soon afterwards died from that injury, and at no point during Gray's time in the van was that van in, say, a collision or accident. The only people in the van with Gray were cops.

We already saw this happen with Michael Brown, where the Justice Department was forced to conclude on the basis of evidence collected that Darren Wilson could not be charged with a crime. Of course they did, because they were forced to rely on the evidence that the Ferguson police collected, and the police protect their own.


So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.



I have not read the evidence involving this (as far as that this kind of case typically wouldn't go to trial), but if it is the case beyond a shadow of a doubt, then some type of action should be taken.

But, if every case that didn't end up being guilty meant that someone should sue, we would have a huge rise in lawsuits. Thus, it's the details.
 
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galad2003 wrote:
So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.


In the first place, nobody is being prosecuted. The DA's office investigated and couldn't find evidence sufficient to justify a prosecution (or did, and don't want to - that can happen with prosecutors and cops when they think they're all on the same team).

In the second place, destroying evidence of a crime is, you know, a crime in and of itself, and it's fairly obvious that in the Gray case there had to be evidence with respect to Gray's death given that there were cops in the van with him when his spine mysteriously broke all by itself, so an investigation was warranted - despite what Ferret might otherwise say.
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galad2003 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).


Of course there was no evidence as to what happened. The police controlled what evidence was collected as to the time he spent in the van, and surprisingly, they found nothing which would incriminate one of their own, so useful idiots like Ferret can bleat about how the police were ill-done-by, when in fact what is known for sure is this: Freddie Gray went into a police van in relative good health, and came out of it with a broken spine, and soon afterwards died from that injury, and at no point during Gray's time in the van was that van in, say, a collision or accident. The only people in the van with Gray were cops.

We already saw this happen with Michael Brown, where the Justice Department was forced to conclude on the basis of evidence collected that Darren Wilson could not be charged with a crime. Of course they did, because they were forced to rely on the evidence that the Ferguson police collected, and the police protect their own.


So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.



This is definitely one of those 'gut' things. And if you feel the people are upset about the outcome are being silly then the entire RNC strategy should appal you.

People 'feel' that someone going into a police van healthy and coming out with a broken spine should be against some law on the face of things. There shouldn't be a need for much more than'you put him in this van without a broken spine and he came out with one' for some level of easily prosecutwble negligence to be reached. The idea that the police could throw anyone (as in anyone they felt like it) in a van and they could come out with a broken spine with no reprecussions is fairly alarming.

Now the reality is the law has x standards etc etc and police have an even larger margin than even civilians, and the reality is, there probably isn't anything that can be done.

But it doesn't 'feel' right. Get it?
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Mac Mcleod
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What can you say... if there were cams inside the van, we wouldn't be here and there's a good chance gray would be alive and unharmed.
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galad2003 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).


Of course there was no evidence as to what happened. The police controlled what evidence was collected as to the time he spent in the van, and surprisingly, they found nothing which would incriminate one of their own, so useful idiots like Ferret can bleat about how the police were ill-done-by, when in fact what is known for sure is this: Freddie Gray went into a police van in relative good health, and came out of it with a broken spine, and soon afterwards died from that injury, and at no point during Gray's time in the van was that van in, say, a collision or accident. The only people in the van with Gray were cops.

We already saw this happen with Michael Brown, where the Justice Department was forced to conclude on the basis of evidence collected that Darren Wilson could not be charged with a crime. Of course they did, because they were forced to rely on the evidence that the Ferguson police collected, and the police protect their own.


So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.

They can still be sacked.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
What can you say... if there were cams inside the van, we wouldn't be here and there's a good chance gray would be alive and unharmed.


Unless it mysteriously malfunctioned. PDs need to buy better cameras, they seem to have serious problems with going off at just the time it would be good for them to be on.
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galad2003 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.


In the first place, nobody is being prosecuted. The DA's office investigated and couldn't find evidence sufficient to justify a prosecution (or did, and don't want to - that can happen with prosecutors and cops when they think they're all on the same team).

In the second place, destroying evidence of a crime is, you know, a crime in and of itself, and it's fairly obvious that in the Gray case there had to be evidence with respect to Gray's death given that there were cops in the van with him when his spine mysteriously broke all by itself, so an investigation was warranted - despite what Ferret might otherwise say.


What the fuck are you talking about? Three or four officers have gone to court and have been found not guilty which is why the DA is dropping the case against the others.

As for destroying evidence, well you need evidence of that. Maybe it happened maybe it didn't but you can't just say it did and go after people with no proof. Are you saying we should throw out all due process and the need for evidence in our legal system?

Christ the irony of this case and Hillary is killing me right now.
Whilst I have some sympathy with your view they have not be charged, so are not guilty I think there is a difference between a death (in their custody), and not storing information correctly.
 
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galad2003 wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about? Three or four officers have gone to court and have been found not guilty which is why the DA is dropping the case against the others.


You're right; I was mentally mistaking the Freddie Gray trials for the Tamir Rice lack of trials.
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Josh
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galad2003 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
In all fairness there was no real evidacen as to what happened (but it does not look like the police exactly did a great job).


Of course there was no evidence as to what happened. The police controlled what evidence was collected as to the time he spent in the van, and surprisingly, they found nothing which would incriminate one of their own, so useful idiots like Ferret can bleat about how the police were ill-done-by, when in fact what is known for sure is this: Freddie Gray went into a police van in relative good health, and came out of it with a broken spine, and soon afterwards died from that injury, and at no point during Gray's time in the van was that van in, say, a collision or accident. The only people in the van with Gray were cops.

We already saw this happen with Michael Brown, where the Justice Department was forced to conclude on the basis of evidence collected that Darren Wilson could not be charged with a crime. Of course they did, because they were forced to rely on the evidence that the Ferguson police collected, and the police protect their own.


So we should prosecute people with no evidence?

Sometimes you can't get enough evidence to convict. Did the cops do something wrong? probably, but you still need evidence and it's not like the prosecution wasn't determined in this case to go after the cops. the prosecutor did not work with police to sweep this under the rug, there just wasn't evidence.

The prosecutor knew this and wasted tax payers money on pursuing this anyway.



This is definitely one of those 'gut' things. And if you feel the people are upset about the outcome are being silly then the entire RNC strategy should appal you.

People 'feel' that someone going into a police van healthy and coming out with a broken spine should be against some law on the face of things. There shouldn't be a need for much more than'you put him in this van without a broken spine and he came out with one' for some level of easily prosecutwble negligence to be reached. The idea that the police could throw anyone (as in anyone they felt like it) in a van and they could come out with a broken spine with no reprecussions is fairly alarming.

Now the reality is the law has x standards etc etc and police have an even larger margin than even civilians, and the reality is, there probably isn't anything that can be done.

But it doesn't 'feel' right. Get it?


Seriously, what the fuck? You're usually more intelligent than this so I am surprised by the stupidity of this. The law is not about feeling right, it's about facts and due process. You can't convict someone on feelings you need evidence. Sadly it was lacking as evidenced by the other officers who were found not guilty and the one that was a hung jury. You can't just say someone got into a van alive and they got out dead so they are guilty - that's not the law. if you feel that should be the law then you change the law to those standards. But you can't change the law on the fly because you feel it should be that way.


You missed the point of my post. I was highlighting the emotional response and explaining it, I was not advocating that it override due process.

I was drawing the parallel to the Republican convention and new party platform as well. To show how insane feels over facts is as a foundation for government and society. If I were actually advocating feels over facts then I would be undercutting my own point.

That clear it up?
 
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galad2003 wrote:
Ok let me back this bus up here. I don't think you guys are completely familiar with this issue and we are talking past each other.

The Baltimore DA has already went to court with several of the police officers (three or 4 i'm not sure the exact number). the first case, which was supposed to be the most likely to be convicted was a hung jury. The DA went forward and the next couple of officers were found not guilty. Their have been calls for the DA to stop prosecuting because if she couldn't get the "easy ones" what chance do the harder ones stand of being found guilty. The DA has finally dropped the matter.

Now, are the officers really guilty? I don't know. I'm sure Freddie Gray got roughed up a bit. But the law requires proof of this. Sometimes, even though you know someone is guilty, you don't have evidence. Sucks but that is how it goes. personally i'm glad we err on the side of caution when convicting people in the US, maybe your view is different.

Keep in mind, the officers discussed in the article are the ones who had the least likely to do with his death. At most they would be negligent. I would go into more but I have to get back to work - fuck windows 10 is all I have to say abotu that.
Some of guys get that, which is why we have not said they committed a crime, just a sackable offense.

As to your last point, yes fuck windows 10, today I tried to install into onto a windows 10 compliant note pad (it had a bloody windows 10 compliant sticker on it) that was (in essence) a fresh machine and did not have enough memory.
 
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galad2003 wrote:
The Baltimore DA has already went to court with several of the police officers (three or 4 i'm not sure the exact number). the first case, which was supposed to be the most likely to be convicted was a hung jury. The DA went forward and the next couple of officers were found not guilty. Their have been calls for the DA to stop prosecuting because if she couldn't get the "easy ones" what chance do the harder ones stand of being found guilty. The DA has finally dropped the matter.

Now, are the officers really guilty? I don't know. I'm sure Freddie Gray got roughed up a bit. But the law requires proof of this. Sometimes, even though you know someone is guilty, you don't have evidence. Sucks but that is how it goes. personally i'm glad we err on the side of caution when convicting people in the US, maybe your view is different.


1. The forensic medical examiner ruled Gray's death a homicide.

2. The prosecutor just released this statement:

Quote:
After much thought and prayer, it has become clear that without being able to work with an independent investigatory agency from the very start, without having a say in the election of whether cases proceed in front of a judge or jury, without communal oversight of police in this community, without substantive reforms to the current criminal justice system, we could try this case 100 times just like it and we would still end up with the same result.


That's basically her saying "they closed ranks and made it impossible to convict them for killing him."
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It always seemed to me that the prosecutor overreached on the charges. Had they gone for something like involuntary manslaughter against those cops, they might have had a chance. I think politics drove the charges more so than an objective evaluation of what the appropriate charges should have been given the available evidence and the chances of gaining a successful conviction.
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mightygodking wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
The Baltimore DA has already went to court with several of the police officers (three or 4 i'm not sure the exact number). the first case, which was supposed to be the most likely to be convicted was a hung jury. The DA went forward and the next couple of officers were found not guilty. Their have been calls for the DA to stop prosecuting because if she couldn't get the "easy ones" what chance do the harder ones stand of being found guilty. The DA has finally dropped the matter.

Now, are the officers really guilty? I don't know. I'm sure Freddie Gray got roughed up a bit. But the law requires proof of this. Sometimes, even though you know someone is guilty, you don't have evidence. Sucks but that is how it goes. personally i'm glad we err on the side of caution when convicting people in the US, maybe your view is different.


1. The forensic medical examiner ruled Gray's death a homicide.

2. The prosecutor just released this statement:

Quote:
After much thought and prayer, it has become clear that without being able to work with an independent investigatory agency from the very start, without having a say in the election of whether cases proceed in front of a judge or jury, without communal oversight of police in this community, without substantive reforms to the current criminal justice system, we could try this case 100 times just like it and we would still end up with the same result.


That's basically her saying "they closed ranks and made it impossible to convict them for killing him."


Don't they call that the "Blue Code" or something like that?

I feel bad for anyone involved in IA for a police force - it has to be a tough job.

Any thoughts on why the "Blue Code" (if that is what it is called) is so strong, and nearly impenetrable?
 
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galad2003 wrote:
I think body cameras and cameras in vehicles would help in this regard.


I read the article linked in the OP (as well as a few other links at the Baltimore Sun, including a great op-ed piece). Apparently, Baltimore PD has taken many of the mishaps in the Freddie Gray case to heart, and have made some rather sweeping changes to their department and their procedures - including mandatory body cams for all (or mostly all) cops.

That's a good thing. In fact, nothing that has been done in the PD since the Freddie Gray incident has been "bad", really - just all major improvements that everyone seems to be satisfied with.
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desertfox2004 wrote:
It always seemed to me that the prosecutor overreached on the charges. Had they gone for something like involuntary manslaughter against those cops, they might have had a chance.
They did. The only person charged with murder was the driver.

Officer Caesar R. Goodson, Jr. (van driver)
Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), manslaughter by vehicle (criminal negligence), misconduct in office.

Officer William G. Porter
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct in office.

Officer Garrett E. Miller
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Officer Edward M. Nero
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Lt. Brian W. Rice
Involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Sgt. Alicia D. White
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
It always seemed to me that the prosecutor overreached on the charges. Had they gone for something like involuntary manslaughter against those cops, they might have had a chance.
They did. The only person charged with murder was the driver.

Officer Caesar R. Goodson, Jr. (van driver)
Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), manslaughter by vehicle (criminal negligence), misconduct in office.

Officer William G. Porter
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct in office.

Officer Garrett E. Miller
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Officer Edward M. Nero
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Lt. Brian W. Rice
Involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Sgt. Alicia D. White
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct.


Yeah, I guess I was only thinking of the driver. Also, though, the prosecutor's office perhaps shouldn't have charged all six officers. Charging perhaps at most officers Porter, Rice, and White with assault plus the driver with involuntary manslaughter only might have been a better approach.
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Christopher Seguin
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desertfox2004 wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
It always seemed to me that the prosecutor overreached on the charges. Had they gone for something like involuntary manslaughter against those cops, they might have had a chance.
They did. The only person charged with murder was the driver.

Officer Caesar R. Goodson, Jr. (van driver)
Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), manslaughter by vehicle (criminal negligence), misconduct in office.

Officer William G. Porter
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct in office.

Officer Garrett E. Miller
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Officer Edward M. Nero
Two counts of second degree assault, two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Lt. Brian W. Rice
Involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence), two counts of misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

Sgt. Alicia D. White
Involuntary manslaughter, second degree assault, misconduct.


Yeah, I guess I was only thinking of the driver. Also, though, the prosecutor's office perhaps shouldn't have charged all six officers. Charging perhaps at most officers Porter, Rice, and White with assault plus the driver with involuntary manslaughter only might have been a better approach.


I am curious. How often does involuntary manslaughter due to a vehicle actually get prosecuted (and even result in a jury trial vs. a plea bargain)?

I ask because of the charges here, but then you have some high profile cases in which, despite the death of a person as a result of negligent driving, nothing happens. Cases such as:

Ted Kennedy
Caitlyn Jenner
Laura Bush
I am sure there are others, including the Freddie Gray officers, but these were the first to come to mind.

So what is it about involuntary manslaughter due to a vehicle? Is it really not prosecuted very often, or is it kind of a "throw-in" charge to see if it sticks?

(By the way, the Laura Bush "lack of prosecution" thing wasn't "political" (ala Ted Kennedy) or "famous" (ala Caitlyn Jenner) as a reason why it wasn't prosecuted - it happened when she was 17, well before there was any thought of ever becoming First Lady or being a public figure).
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C'mon Jeremy, it's "Institutional Racism" (TM), it's around you everywhere, just out of reach, like God. The heretics that don't believe will eventually be rooted out, of course.

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