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Josh Gilbank
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Played the first scenario last night with 3 players and it seemed way to easy. I think we took a total of 4 wounds the entire night and nobody was every at risk. We generally killed everything before they even got a chance to act.

Is this the norm? I expected it to be more of a challenge.
 
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Michael Jordal
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The first scenario is really easy. So far we have not failed one yet, but have had some that are close. Utilizing the exotic adversaries will increase difficulty imo.
 
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Josh Gilbank
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Gotta buy those sadley. GW wants a lot for that stuff. I also don't like that you have to choose which one
 
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Dyne1319 wrote:
I also don't like that you have to choose which one


I'm also not a fan of that. My group would powergame it.

If you hit an 'add an exotic adversary' choice, just roll a d4 to see which one. That's what I plan on doing I think.
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Greg Purcell
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The other thing to keep in mind is that it will all (after the easy first scenario) seem too easy until it's not.

One thing I grew tired of with Descent, etc, is this idea that health is like a block of tofu you just keep chopping at in regular intervals until it's gone.

In Silver Tower, you can cruise along for a couple of rooms and then suddenly someone will get you for five health and you're out for a couple of turns. Like they "slipped one in" under your armor when you were off your guard.

It's wonky as hell but sort of refreshing.
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James M Hewitt
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If you're finding it too easy, one thing I've seen people do is give adversaries a save, just like heroes. I'd probably go with a 6+ for Scuttlings and Blue Horrors, a 5+ for Acolytes and Pink Horrors, a 4+ for Tzaangors, and no save for Brimstone Horrors.

I'm not sure whether the big bad guys need saves – they've already got rules that make them hard to kill – but if you wanna go that way, I'd give the Summoner a 3+, the Thaumaturge a 4+ and the Deathrunner a 5+.

That's what I reckon, at least
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Nick Wirtz
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Yeah, my group also felt the game was too easy and took the save approach, but just went with a flat 5+ on everyone to effectively just add 1/3 (statistically) more health.
 
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Jared Voshall
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Some of the later scenarios do add rules that add more difficulty to the game, particularly the final room of the scenario. I've only played the 6th scenario of the back half, and it definitely ups the challenge in the final room - but not, in my opinion, in the right way.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
In the finale, you have 2 braziers that essentially deal 1 automatic damage to every player at the start of the Adversary phase, and it takes two 4+ actions to close them off. Alongside 2 encounter rolls, this makes for a very difficult finale to the scenario. However, you're either pretty much toast (if you can't get to the braziers in round 1) or back to a challenging but quickly doable encounter (if you can get at least one of them covered round 1).


But, one way or the other, it was a nice change of pace from how easy the previous scenarios have been throughout.
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Josh Gilbank
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Maybe Kingdom death has ruined me for games like these. I will play through the campaign for sure but if the next one is also too easy I will likly add the saves at 5+ to all minions.
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Brian C
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Sounds like every other dungeon crawl on the market: little to no playtesting, just get that art perfect, make sure the minis are on point, toss some tiles in there, and call it good.

I'm hoping that when the success of Gloomhaven hits, it will mark a turning point as the dungeon crawl scene makes some phenomenal ideological change from the Less Is More mentality, because we are building this game for children -- to More Is More, because we're building this game for gamers.
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Dave van Zundert
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First quest is a tutorial so is easier then the rest.

But the game can be easy but if the destiny dice are against you, you can die very fast! Go through the rules for the respite and the unexpected events just to be sure you are doing everything the game throws at you.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Dyne, yeah, KD's as close to perfect as I've ever seen on AI baddie difficulty. Well, maybe Pandemic, but I find that game too dry. Adding the save really makes it at least closer to a tense fight, since a decent quantity of baddies (especially if you roll too well on saves) will survive to retaliate more often.

Brian, yeah... that's disappointingly true. And what is/what do you like about Gloomhaven, if it's a good alternative?

Dave, destiny dice can definitely screw with you, and not actually getting respites does mean you don't waltz through with no chance of even getting to half health, but the shards compensate for most of that as long as you're not stupid about killing things at the right pace. Even with the 5+ save in play, the game's been a cake walk so far. A fun cake walk, but still a cake walk.
 
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Brian C
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
Brian, yeah... that's disappointingly true. And what is/what do you like about Gloomhaven, if it's a good alternative?

My opinions on Gloomhaven:

1. The designer's passion for his game is palpable. I find it easy to get on board with a game when the designer is so driven. At that point, even if general execution is lacking -- that passion is still bound to bleed through to the gameplay. And even if it's a total flop, my hat still goes off to the legitimate game-builder, to the guy that had an idea for a great board game but just came up short, rather than having a bunch of suits come up with a great idea to make some money (which I feel also bleeds through to gameplay).

2. Card/Hand Management in a Dungeon Crawl. You can't fake having a legit ruleset when this is your core mechanic. That was tried with Myth -- and look at what happened. People got out their pitchforks. But hand us a light dungeon crawl that took less effort to build than Myth, and hide it behind a shiny roll to resolve mechanic driven by fancy custom dice, and we turn a blind eye. Gloomhaven claims to bring us all the tactical juiciness of managing a hand of useful cards, ala Myth, but with all the extras that you might want to come with your dungeon crawl (the most important of which, to me, is a tight campaign, an end game that gives you a *reason* to gear out and level up and continue pushing forward).

3. That Wonderful End Game. For me there is no other reason to grind through a dungeon crawl than to be setting yourself up for the end game. Without that one element, the entire game loses its purpose. This is where every board game dungeon crawl that I've played has come up short for me: but Nick, you have KDM. You know what End Game I speak of. Imagine something like that in a dungeon crawl. Game over, sir. That's more or less what I'm hoping for from Gloomhaven, that purpose driving you forward at all costs. Everything I've seen from the game says there will be plenty of that, and this is the single biggest reason I'm so psyched about it.

4. The Card Count. I know, this is almost like buying into a game just based off the look of its minis. Regardless, this thing is supposed to have upwards to 1000+ cards (I looked but couldn't find the quote from Isaac where he gives the exact number). I mean that's a TON of content, and rules-depth, and imagine the playtesting that went into that kind of card count. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Massive Darkness that almost went through an entire campaign without talking about their cards at all.

5. The Overland Map.



Check it out. It's going to be like Skyrim, traveling across that map, exploring new locations, meeting new allies (you'll end up retiring a few heroes, and starting up new ones, before you ever reach the end of the game), and generally will just be spelunking across that map to your hearts content. An aspect of the dungeon crawl that has been up until this point overlooked -- but why? I think it's because we're happy enough buying these mediocre offerings that don't bring half the content to the table that they should be bringing. But ofcourse there's no reason to do any of that, if you're just out to make a buck. Unless ofcourse you're a real games-builder, and you take pride in your work and your ideas, and you want to build an amazing game.

I think in the end, what it comes down to for me is that there isn't enough passion behind our current crop of dungeon crawls. They are just there to lure us in, so that we spend our cash. Gloomhaven strikes me as a completely different sort of animal. One that wants to be the alpha dog of its little neck of the woods, instead of just another cute little furry critter just trying to hide away his nut for the coming winter.
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Nick Wirtz
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re: 2, are you referring to ST vs. Myth? 'Cause I made the same connection, but what I think ST did infinitely better was provide some very basic actions that you can always do, plus the pool.

re: 3- has Gloomhaven not come out, or are you not to the end of it? On KD,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
despite the setup and options being epic, I've actually felt the boss was kinda' weak, though have never failed to get a twilight killfactory... either way, I'm hoping the variant campaign bosses are tougher


Either way, I'm definitely interested, and ambition/passion is definitely an incentive to look further. Thanks for the info!
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Josh Gilbank
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Exo Desta wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
Brian, yeah... that's disappointingly true. And what is/what do you like about Gloomhaven, if it's a good alternative?

My opinions on Gloomhaven:

1. The designer's passion for his game is palpable. I find it easy to get on board with a game when the designer is so driven. At that point, even if general execution is lacking -- that passion is still bound to bleed through to the gameplay. And even if it's a total flop, my hat still goes off to the legitimate game-builder, to the guy that had an idea for a great board game but just came up short, rather than having a bunch of suits come up with a great idea to make some money (which I feel also bleeds through to gameplay).

2. Card/Hand Management in a Dungeon Crawl. You can't fake having a legit ruleset when this is your core mechanic. That was tried with Myth -- and look at what happened. People got out their pitchforks. But hand us a light dungeon crawl that took less effort to build than Myth, and hide it behind a shiny roll to resolve mechanic driven by fancy custom dice, and we turn a blind eye. Gloomhaven claims to bring us all the tactical juiciness of managing a hand of useful cards, ala Myth, but with all the extras that you might want to come with your dungeon crawl (the most important of which, to me, is a tight campaign, an end game that gives you a *reason* to gear out and level up and continue pushing forward).

3. That Wonderful End Game. For me there is no other reason to grind through a dungeon crawl than to be setting yourself up for the end game. Without that one element, the entire game loses its purpose. This is where every board game dungeon crawl that I've played has come up short for me: but Nick, you have KDM. You know what End Game I speak of. Imagine something like that in a dungeon crawl. Game over, sir. That's more or less what I'm hoping for from Gloomhaven, that purpose driving you forward at all costs. Everything I've seen from the game says there will be plenty of that, and this is the single biggest reason I'm so psyched about it.

4. The Card Count. I know, this is almost like buying into a game just based off the look of its minis. Regardless, this thing is supposed to have upwards to 1000+ cards (I looked but couldn't find the quote from Isaac where he gives the exact number). I mean that's a TON of content, and rules-depth, and imagine the playtesting that went into that kind of card count. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Massive Darkness that almost went through an entire campaign without talking about their cards at all.

5. The Overland Map.



Check it out. It's going to be like Skyrim, traveling across that map, exploring new locations, meeting new allies (you'll end up retiring a few heroes, and starting up new ones, before you ever reach the end of the game), and generally will just be spelunking across that map to your hearts content. An aspect of the dungeon crawl that has been up until this point overlooked -- but why? I think it's because we're happy enough buying these mediocre offerings that don't bring half the content to the table that they should be bringing. But ofcourse there's no reason to do any of that, if you're just out to make a buck. Unless ofcourse you're a real games-builder, and you take pride in your work and your ideas, and you want to build an amazing game.

I think in the end, what it comes down to for me is that there isn't enough passion behind our current crop of dungeon crawls. They are just there to lure us in, so that we spend our cash. Gloom Haven strikes me as a completely different sort of animal. One that wants to be the alpha dog of its little neck of the woods, instead of just another cute little furry critter just trying to hide away his nut for the coming winter.


I have been looking at gloom haven but have hesitated to pull the trigger due to the legacy nature of the game, it looks amazing just worried that once the scenarios are exhausted a random dungeon deck just to combat things doesn't sound appealing to me with out the narrative.

The other concerning thing is the idea that I need to play with the same group all the time. KDM was built so that subbing people in was easy (you have a pool of people to take characters from) I feel like gloom haven might be to difficult for people to just jump in and play and because of the legacy there is no restart on it.
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gary gee
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Exo Desta wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
Brian, yeah... that's disappointingly true. And what is/what do you like about Gloomhaven, if it's a good alternative?

My opinions on Gloomhaven:

1. The designer's passion for his game is palpable. I find it easy to get on board with a game when the designer is so driven. At that point, even if general execution is lacking -- that passion is still bound to bleed through to the gameplay. And even if it's a total flop, my hat still goes off to the legitimate game-builder, to the guy that had an idea for a great board game but just came up short, rather than having a bunch of suits come up with a great idea to make some money (which I feel also bleeds through to gameplay).

2. Card/Hand Management in a Dungeon Crawl. You can't fake having a legit ruleset when this is your core mechanic. That was tried with Myth -- and look at what happened. People got out their pitchforks. But hand us a light dungeon crawl that took less effort to build than Myth, and hide it behind a shiny roll to resolve mechanic driven by fancy custom dice, and we turn a blind eye. Gloomhaven claims to bring us all the tactical juiciness of managing a hand of useful cards, ala Myth, but with all the extras that you might want to come with your dungeon crawl (the most important of which, to me, is a tight campaign, an end game that gives you a *reason* to gear out and level up and continue pushing forward).

3. That Wonderful End Game. For me there is no other reason to grind through a dungeon crawl than to be setting yourself up for the end game. Without that one element, the entire game loses its purpose. This is where every board game dungeon crawl that I've played has come up short for me: but Nick, you have KDM. You know what End Game I speak of. Imagine something like that in a dungeon crawl. Game over, sir. That's more or less what I'm hoping for from Gloomhaven, that purpose driving you forward at all costs. Everything I've seen from the game says there will be plenty of that, and this is the single biggest reason I'm so psyched about it.

4. The Card Count. I know, this is almost like buying into a game just based off the look of its minis. Regardless, this thing is supposed to have upwards to 1000+ cards (I looked but couldn't find the quote from Isaac where he gives the exact number). I mean that's a TON of content, and rules-depth, and imagine the playtesting that went into that kind of card count. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Massive Darkness that almost went through an entire campaign without talking about their cards at all.

5. The Overland Map.



Check it out. It's going to be like Skyrim, traveling across that map, exploring new locations, meeting new allies (you'll end up retiring a few heroes, and starting up new ones, before you ever reach the end of the game), and generally will just be spelunking across that map to your hearts content. An aspect of the dungeon crawl that has been up until this point overlooked -- but why? I think it's because we're happy enough buying these mediocre offerings that don't bring half the content to the table that they should be bringing. But ofcourse there's no reason to do any of that, if you're just out to make a buck. Unless ofcourse you're a real games-builder, and you take pride in your work and your ideas, and you want to build an amazing game.

I think in the end, what it comes down to for me is that there isn't enough passion behind our current crop of dungeon crawls. They are just there to lure us in, so that we spend our cash. Gloomhaven strikes me as a completely different sort of animal. One that wants to be the alpha dog of its little neck of the woods, instead of just another cute little furry critter just trying to hide away his nut for the coming winter.
problem with gloomhaven is..its taking forever to be released?...the designer had a fully working demo up and running over a year ago..but still waiting for full release today.its ok saying that the game is going to be this or that.and that certain other games haven't been.but,at least we have had the chance to play them.its finding the fine balance between rushing and taking too long.and not many developers or game companies have that talent.
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Dave van Zundert
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
Dyne, yeah, KD's as close to perfect as I've ever seen on AI baddie difficulty. Well, maybe Pandemic, but I find that game too dry. Adding the save really makes it at least closer to a tense fight, since a decent quantity of baddies (especially if you roll too well on saves) will survive to retaliate more often.

Brian, yeah... that's disappointingly true. And what is/what do you like about Gloomhaven, if it's a good alternative?

Dave, destiny dice can definitely screw with you, and not actually getting respites does mean you don't waltz through with no chance of even getting to half health, but the shards compensate for most of that as long as you're not stupid about killing things at the right pace. Even with the 5+ save in play, the game's been a cake walk so far. A fun cake walk, but still a cake walk.

The first few games I played I also thought it was to easy but we found out that we did somethings wrong, or rather forgot some things. Especially with the destiny dice. Not saying the game is difficult but now and then it is challenging.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Hmm, I'm fine with slow release schedule, but I hugely prefer regular bookkeeping over destroying your expensive games (i.e. "legacy" models). If it's possible to do some extra work to make it re-playable w/ notes, I'd be fine with that, but destructive games are a big turn-off.

Dave, yeah, that's pretty easy, especially in co-op where it's less likely your opponent will point out that overly-advantageous play since no one's rooting for the other side, but so far the only misunderstandings we've had actually made the game easier when we did them correctly...
 
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Josh Gilbank
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apparently there is a PDF that will be released here with Gloom Haven that will allow you to track the game without doing damage to the game. At least that is what I have been told over in the forums for it.
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Brian C
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Dyne1319 wrote:
I have been looking at gloom haven but have hesitated to pull the trigger due to the legacy nature of the game, it looks amazing just worried that once the scenarios are exhausted a random dungeon deck just to combat things doesn't sound appealing to me with out the narrative.

The other concerning thing is the idea that I need to play with the same group all the time. KDM was built so that subbing people in was easy (you have a pool of people to take characters from) I feel like gloom haven might be to difficult for people to just jump in and play and because of the legacy there is no restart on it.

Hopefully the idea of legacy elements doesn't scare too many people off (it was a concern of mine too); but here's what he had to say about it..

And here's a recent thread discussing your second concern. No official response on that one yet, but I'm thinking the designer's taken this into consideration somehow, since the rest of the game is so fleshed out. This could be something to look into though for sure.

tootz wrote:
problem with gloomhaven is..its taking forever to be released?...the designer had a fully working demo up and running over a year ago..but still waiting for full release today.its ok saying that the game is going to be this or that.and that certain other games haven't been.but,at least we have had the chance to play them.its finding the fine balance between rushing and taking too long.and not many developers or game companies have that talent.

I love that he's taking forever!

The enormous advantage that video games have over board games, is that they can be patched and updated constantly and the game gets better over time -- but board games are more or less cast in stone, and any time spent in the oven before they decide to finally start putting it all together is fine by me.

I know you're waiting for S&S but I hope the gremlins take forever on that one too. arrrh
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Well, more interested in it then, thanks for the clarification/link.
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