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Subject: Let's speculate! Will it make it to the Top 100? rss

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Adelin Dumitru
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I definitely think that it will, given that Kemet and Blood Rage - which are often compared with it - are also in the top 100, and this seems as an improvement upon both of them (maybe, maybe not). Given another hot game's rapid ascension to the top 100 (Scythe), how do you think Cry Havoc will fare? Where do you see it standing one month after release, by the end of the year and on the long term (say, 2-3 years from now)?
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Remus Rhymus
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I'll be playing it for the first time at Gen Con. So, without having played it yet, based only on reading the rules and watching videos, I do think it will make the top 100.

Scythe has been hyped for a couple of years prior to it's release, Cry Havoc was announced just prior to release, so it will take some time to catch up.

Time will tell if Cry Havoc has staying power. To me, the thing that truly sets it apart is the innovative battle mechanisms (The battle board objectives). The game seems to have so many good things going for it, asymmetrical factions, tough hand management decisions, some light deckbuilding elements, beautiful artwork, nice looking minis, faction skill variability, etc. But if that battle board turns out to be as cool as it seems, if the decision space for battles turns out to have some depth to it, then I could truly see Cry Havoc having some staying power and remain in the top 100 for years.

Based on the limited knowledge I have, I do have a couple of concerns about potential first impressions of the game:

1. The mechanic that speeds up the game (reduces the number of rounds) if a ton of points are scored. - I understand the reason behind this. If there is a runaway leader, the game will end quicker and you can just play another. I do prefer this to adding cheesey catch up mechanics, but I guess I have concerns that an experienced player teaching the game to new players could win so quickly that the inexperienced players feel like they had no chance and it was over so quick that it turns them off to the game. This is pure speculation and I hope I'm wrong, but it is a potential concern.

2. The assumption that in 4 player games the Trogs are the over-powered faction, so people may feel the game is broken after one play. I don't believe this is true, My concern is public perception and how that may impact ratings of Cry Havoc. The designers have said that the factions are balanced but the Trogs are more straight-forward to play and the other factions might take a few plays to learn how to play them effectively (learn the nuances and combos, etc.). I trust that is true, but I could see people dismissing the game after one play if their perception is that the factions are imbalanced.

Edit: Note the above is only true in a 4 player game. Since a player cannot use the Trogs faction in a 2 or 3 player game, I don't believe this perception will occur at those player counts.

Again, these concerns are based on limited knowledge and I hope they end up being invalid concerns or too minor to truly impact the overall reception of the game. I pre-ordered the game, and certainly intend on playing each faction several times before deciding how I ultimately feel about the game, but my hopes and expectations are pretty high based on what I've seen.
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Grant Rodiek
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Top 100 would be...wow. That would be amazing.

Re: Trog balance...man, I would hope people who pay $75 for a game play it at least twice! Also, and maybe I just suck, but I was struggling with the Trogs towards the end of testing. Maybe I'm just a better Human...
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Christian K
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Base on the feedback I have heard so far I would say that it can get to the top100

Yes balance is an interesting subject, which I think could be covered more.
When we say that a game is balanced we usually think for expert players (I do at least). However, it can be the case that a certain faction is very strong for beginning players (in fact, this is often the case). People will be quick to judge the game as unbalanced.

This will frustrate the designer because he has played it 500 times and have a better knowledge of the game at the expert level where he is quite confident that it is balanced. These two groups of people (the designer and expert players vs new player) will never agree about if the game is balanced because they may be talking about different things.

I would always recommend statements like this "we experienced the xxx as incredible strong and we did not find sufficient weapons of yyy to fight back". Weaker statements are good when talking about a game you have not played much, it offends less but you can still get your point across and have a good debate
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Remus Rhymus
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HerrohGrant wrote:

Re: Trog balance...man, I would hope people who pay $75 for a game play it at least twice! Also, and maybe I just suck, but I was struggling with the Trogs towards the end of testing. Maybe I'm just a better Human...


Hey Grant, I would hope so too!

My concern was regarding people who don't own the game yet, try other peoples copies and potentially get a bad first impression and then rate the game poorly as a result (and not end up purchasing a copy for themselves).

With so many new games coming out all the time competing for the attention of gamers, first impressions go a long way. My comment is less about the game itself and more about the psychology of the modern gamer and potential reactions to perceived imbalance. Unfortunately, these quick judgments are all too common within our hobby.

Don't get me wrong, I am psyched to play Cry Havoc at Gen Con and the foreseeable future. It is my most anticipated game of the con for sure! I hope nothing but success for you and Portal!
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Justin Bolles
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I think it'll be in the 50-100 range.
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Adelin Dumitru
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Well, it has all the hot mechanics that gamers have learned to love in the past years: asymmetrical factions, deckbuilding, area control. It also has some cool miniatures, and seems to offer plenty of replayability. I haven't heard of another game to use this virtual faction, but add that said faction as a player-controlled faction only in games with the maximum number of players, so that's intriguing too. The combat is well-thought and innovative, and there's pleeenty of stuff in the box. I've watched some unboxing videos and my gosh I would not want to be a component in that box, with so many stuff around me.

I've decided to get this instead of Scythe, so I definitely hope that it will make top 100. So far I've only been this excited for Marvel Legendary expansions, which is my all-time favorite game, so this is how much I already love Cry Havoc.
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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Oh, and the fact that Tom Vasel has already called it his no.1 game of the year is definitely going to help!
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Chris McLeod
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Agreed. It does seem that there is a perception of Trogs being OP, simply due to their ease of use. So they may be 'unbalanced' at a certain skill level, which is a whole can of worms.

Overwatch anaology: the common consensus (in my group anyway) is that the super-samurai, Genji is overpowered in the mid-skill range. At low skill, he's basically unusable because he's too difficult to use effectively. At high-skill, the expert players don't use him very often, indicating he's perhaps a little underpowered or situational. At the average skill level, he dominates because he's so damned hard to shoot and his attacks hit like a truck... a ninja truck?

So while Trogs may have a 25%-ish win-rate at expert levels, he may have a 40% win rate at noob levels. I have no idea since I haven't played yet. The only Trog imbalance I read about was Tom Vasel's vid. This all might even be a case of one play group missing anti-Trog strategies that most groups will see right away.

Grant, did you take any statistical data about faction win rates for various skill levels?

That said, I'm not sure I agree that this perceived balance issue will be a problem, at least not one that strategy guides and vids can't fix.


As for Top 100, I think this game looks better than both Kemet and Blood Rage, frankly, and I LOVE those games. Faster, smarter, more control, more options. The polish will speak for itself I believe.

Judging by Vasel's review, I'm guessing it'll probably land up in his top 10 of all time, which probably has a big effect on sales. Tom fans usually love his picks, so that could feed into the top 100 on BGG as well. The same goes with other reviewers like Drive Thru.
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Sergio Perez
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I would, without hesitation, lay money down on this one making it into the top 100. I think it could make it's way into the top 50 at some point.
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Paul Newsham
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remus wrote:
I could see people dismissing the game after one play if their perception is that the factions are imbalanced


In my experience, people willing to do this will do it regardless of whether the imbalance is real.
 
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Remus Rhymus
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Tarnop wrote:
remus wrote:
I could see people dismissing the game after one play if their perception is that the factions are imbalanced


In my experience, people willing to do this will do it regardless of whether the imbalance is real.


Exactly my point.

From reading the designer journals and knowing the quality that comes from Ignacy and Portal Games, I have confidence the factions are properly balanced.

My point in bringing this up was related to if Cry Havoc will have staying power in BGGs top 100. Based on several factors, I do believe Cry Havoc will break into BGGs top 100. Getting into the top 100 and staying there for several years are two different things.

Whether a game has staying power is a difficult thing to predict. Too many variables as we don't know what games are coming out in the future that may be considered "replacements" of that game, for example.

Again, this is pure speculation and I could be wrong, but the concerns I listed are concerns about Cry Havoc's longevity in the Top 100. The concern is if there is a perceived imbalance (whether imbalance truly exists or not) and the gamers that believe the imbalance exists, rate and review the game accordingly, it could hurt the game's ranking over time, depending on how many share that perception or are influenced by it.

That said, this thread is about speculation. I'm just talking out my ass, here. What the hell do I know?

I'm excited to play Cry Havoc because I do think it's a game I will ultimately love and want to play again and again. I also think the game will be very successful regardless of where it ends up and stays in the BGG rankings. BGG Rankings don't necessarily equate to sales numbers and vice versa.
 
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Jon Snow
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goo I don't particularly care about BGG standings as such; I only care that I'm interested and will purchase it. Its already up there with Scythe, Seafall, Star Trek Ascendancy, (my own other pick) and one or two others as the big games to get at GenCon on all the preview videos!

As for the Trogs, who doesn't root for the underdog Troglodyte "natives," defending their planet a la Avatar? If they're tough to beat (but not too tough), so much the better for replayability!

Also, its easily expandable with new factions, even if right now Grant is mock swearing at those here who already want some Space Vikings and etc... Best of luck with this fine looking design.
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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I think the only downside of this game - judging from reviews and playthroughs is the box art. It is not very enticing, to be honest. But this will surely be a minor element, and thr ascension of this game will not be stopped by such a trivial thing. I for one cannot wait for it to reach my country, which I hope will happen by the end of September
 
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Adelin Dumitru
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It's almost reached top 3000, without having had a retail release yet! I think this is a good sign. Hear me out, top 100 it is by the end of October, top 50 by the end of the year!
 
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