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Subject: A way to play without marking up the game? rss

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Josh Gilbank
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While I understand how legacy games work the idea for marking the game and never being able to restart a game from scratch bothers me (OCD). At the end of the game it will essentially be of no value and with the mini's $140 CAD is a bit much to pay for a game that will be unplayable at a certain point.

I'm guessing that the easiest way would be to create tracking sheets so that I won't have to mark anything permanently?

Also as a Side is it easy to switch players in and out or do we need to have the same group together to play the game? This is the other thing that bothers me about these types of games.
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Daily Grind
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This has been discussed many times:
- Stickers
- Multiple Groups- What Does That Look Like?
- Status: does this game still physically self destruct? Have they agreed to provide PDF files for all self destructing components?
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Dustin Rhoades
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I agree. I understand the idea of permanentcy adds weight to your decisions but I'd like to play a game with my kids/grandkids one day. If anyone has good ideas for not marring the game I'd be down for it. As of now I think tracking sheets is probably the best idea.
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Jason Brown
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I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...
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Daniel Nedeljkovic
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


But there are none with mechanisms as good as Gloomhaven (apart from destroying components)
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Isaac Childres
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Dyne1319 wrote:
$140 CAD is a bit much to pay for a game that will be unplayable at a certain point.

I just wanted to reiterate that the game is never rendered unplayable. First of all, the campaign can take over 100 hours to fully explore (this isn't a "play 15 times and you're done" sort of thing), and even then, you never destroy or alter components that would make any scenario in the scenario book impossible to play. Plus there's the random dungeon deck...basically, I've anticipated your concerns, and I have you covered.
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Mark Blasco

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It's my understanding Gloomhaven has a way to play random dungeons, without doing the scenarios. If this is the case, you could play the mechanisms as much as you'd like, without changing anything.

Additionally, I believe there are 80+ scenarios in the book. I'd urge you to think about whether or not you've played any of your heavier games 80 times, and whether or not you think you'll do the same for this.

I can appreciate the reasoning why someone would want to be able to start their game over, but to me this would severely change the whole mentality of the game. If your changes aren't permanent, than your decisions don't matter as much.
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Rick Vinyard
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Cephalofair wrote:
Dyne1319 wrote:
$140 CAD is a bit much to pay for a game that will be unplayable at a certain point.

I just wanted to reiterate that the game is never rendered unplayable. First of all, the campaign can take over 100 hours to fully explore (this isn't a "play 15 times and you're done" sort of thing), and even then, you never destroy or alter components that would make any scenario in the scenario book impossible to play. Plus there's the random dungeon deck...basically, I've anticipated your concerns, and I have you covered.

Accommodation for non-destructive legacy play was a big factor in my decision to back Gloomhaven. I understand why some people like legacy games. But, my preference is against destructive legacy games and that's precisely why I haven't bought any.
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Aaron M
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Cephalofair wrote:
...basically, I've anticipated your concerns, and I have you covered.


Ha! I love it!!!

I read that as, "I've anticipated your concerns, and I have you cornered." Which is a lot different, but made me laugh out loud.

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J Mathews
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...

To add to the very discerning response you already received above about Gloomhaven specifically, legacy games are a style of games that has trades off a lot for a deep, unique experience. In order for legacy games to live up to their potential, you have to have A) a stable group that can B) meet regularly over time, and C) is interested in a game with a strong shared narrative. If any of those is not in place (or changes in the middle, or doesn't work for your group, etc), you end up with a game that you can't restart, can't resell, and can't play. Add that to the fact that legacy games have more components and thus are more expensive than similar non-legacy substitutes and you end up with a high level of risk that pairs with that quite significant reward of an experience unlike anything else.

So it is better to read the questions or concerns surrounding legacy-style games as attempts to mitigate that risk as opposed to haters trying to change a game. As a true legacy game, I would not have purchased Gloomhaven because while I have C, A is iffy and B is going to be a challenge. And that is why I don't own any other legacy games. It's not out of interest, it's because the costs to get to the payout are too high for where things stand for me right now personally.
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Josh Gilbank
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Cephalofair wrote:
Dyne1319 wrote:
$140 CAD is a bit much to pay for a game that will be unplayable at a certain point.

I just wanted to reiterate that the game is never rendered unplayable. First of all, the campaign can take over 100 hours to fully explore (this isn't a "play 15 times and you're done" sort of thing), and even then, you never destroy or alter components that would make any scenario in the scenario book impossible to play. Plus there's the random dungeon deck...basically, I've anticipated your concerns, and I have you covered.


My worry with that is playing with others in that we are just jumping in to a world where some players know whats going on and other don't and are using new characters and learning the game but at a point where they should have better working knowledge of the game.

How is the game accessible to players that have not been their since the start of the game without them losing out on the experience. Since this is a large game its unlikely to finish it with just the same group of people
 
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Josh Gilbank
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Floating World wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


But there are none with mechanisms as good as Gloomhaven (apart from destroying components)


I love the concepts and the changing world I just dislike the idea of marking the manual and the map and the cards or using stickers on the map. It seems like those things could be tracked by using a sheet with a card list instead. I get that as a result the permanency of the game is change and you could always restart the game then But in theory you could do that anyway and just ignore the changes and marks it just would not look nice.
 
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Will Martin
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Want a really easy way not to mark up your game?

Buy a sheet of thin plastic.

Place said sheet over the board.

Cut the sheet to be the same dimensions of the board.

Use markers on the plastic.

Viola.

Undamaged game with legacy components.
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Marty McFly
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Dyne1319 wrote:
Floating World wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


But there are none with mechanisms as good as Gloomhaven (apart from destroying components)


I love the concepts and the changing world I just dislike the idea of marking the manual and the map and the cards or using stickers on the map. It seems like those things could be tracked by using a sheet with a card list instead. I get that as a result the permanency of the game is change and you could always restart the game then But in theory you could do that anyway and just ignore the changes and marks it just would not look nice.

A PDF will be provided here on BGG to track things manually, so you'll never have to permanently modify components if you don't want to. This has been mentioned in every thread regarding this topic, and yet people seem to ignore it.
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J Mathews
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Dyne1319 wrote:
Floating World wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


But there are none with mechanisms as good as Gloomhaven (apart from destroying components)


I love the concepts and the changing world I just dislike the idea of marking the manual and the map and the cards or using stickers on the map. It seems like those things could be tracked by using a sheet with a card list instead. I get that as a result the permanency of the game is change and you could always restart the game then But in theory you could do that anyway and just ignore the changes and marks it just would not look nice.

I believe that there will be a pdf that will allow you to track board changes. Sleeving cards will get you part of the way too. From what I have been able to determine, Isaac is correct and this will be playable without damaging or permanently changing anything.
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Jason Brown
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EventHorizon wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


So it is better to read the questions or concerns surrounding legacy-style games as attempts to mitigate that risk as opposed to haters trying to change a game.

Point taken, but I still don't understand. The legacy aspect is a feature of the game, not a by-product. I wouldn't purchase LotR Card Game and try to figure out how to remove the deck-building aspect, I'd just look for another card game. People who don't like worker placement games shouldn't buy Lords of Waterdeep.

Unlike the Pandemic and Risk versions, legacy was built into this game from the ground up. It's as part of the game as the multi-use cards.

In the end though, I suppose folks can do what they want with their games. If you can find a workaround that makes you happy, more power to you. It just seems easier to me to find the game you like and play that game.
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Greg
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There is nothing quite like this one though. You can't easily go find something better.

Isaac's answers seems to suggest that you don't even have to use the legacy portions. He designed the game to please every gamer, even ones that would not like legacy...
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Josh Gilbank
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EventHorizon wrote:
Dyne1319 wrote:
Floating World wrote:
MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


But there are none with mechanisms as good as Gloomhaven (apart from destroying components)


I love the concepts and the changing world I just dislike the idea of marking the manual and the map and the cards or using stickers on the map. It seems like those things could be tracked by using a sheet with a card list instead. I get that as a result the permanency of the game is change and you could always restart the game then But in theory you could do that anyway and just ignore the changes and marks it just would not look nice.

I believe that there will be a pdf that will allow you to track board changes. Sleeving cards will get you part of the way too. From what I have been able to determine, Isaac is correct and this will be playable without damaging or permanently changing anything.


Perfect, Then I will be picking this up, the PDF is exactly what I would rather use to track the game. I know its not the way you are to do it but my OCD would not let me do it any other way. Pre-ordering it now.
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J Mathews
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Phate999 wrote:
There is nothing quite like this one though. You can't easily go find something better.

Isaac's answers seems to suggest that you don't even have to use the legacy portions. He designed the game to please every gamer, even ones that would not like legacy...

+1. If there is another no dice, campaign-oriented, non-cliche setting dungeon crawl out there, I'd love to see it. When the appeal is not the legacy part but a large part of the potential downside risk is, you get requests like those above. Particularly since legacy enhances the experience but not the fundamental gameplay.
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Michael
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I suggest you sleeve all the cards, put stickers on sleeves, and cut a sheet of plexiglass to set over the board an make marks/place stickers on the plexi glass.
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Josh Gilbank
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Phate999 wrote:
There is nothing quite like this one though. You can't easily go find something better.

Isaac's answers seems to suggest that you don't even have to use the legacy portions. He designed the game to please every gamer, even ones that would not like legacy...


Its true never seen anything quite like this game, been watching the Rahdo run through of it and it looks great even in the prototype phase. This game looks like a ton of fun.
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Marcus S
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mkaup366 wrote:
I suggest you sleeve all the cards, put stickers on sleeves, and cut a sheet of plexiglass to set over the board an make marks/place stickers on the plexi glass.

Yep, sleeve all 1700 cards... Could probably just re buy the game for cheaper than that...
All jokes aside, this has also been discussed in other threads and there are only a couple types of cards that would need to be sleeved to avoid putting stickers on or marking the cards directly.
 
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Luke Jacobs
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'll never understand why people that hate legacy games insist on trying to change them instead of simply buying a different game. Permanent changes are part of the game. If you don't like the idea of permanent changes, there are dozens of dungeon crawlers out there that you'll be able to play with your kids and grandkids. Actually, there's one on Kickstarter every month...


Or.

We could talk about what the OP is about.

Which is how to play without making permanent changes. Which doesn't effect you at all.

So, it is I who doesn't understand why people wander into posts that request information only to write something like, "Why would you do that? You shouldn't, you should do the the opposite, or not play this game at all."
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Play a different game. It's like saying I want to go to Gen Con, but I don't want to travel there.
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J Mathews
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skyzero wrote:
Play a different game. It's like saying I want to go to Gen Con, but I don't want to travel there.

No, it's like saying you want to go to GenCon but you would be more likely to go if it was closer to where you live because you have issues with traveling. Local cons aren't an adequate substitute for GenCon. I'm still waiting for someone to point out a reasonable substitute for Gloomhaven.
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