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Subject: Search Casualties Due To Booby Traps While Mopping Up rss

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Peter Kossits
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Just wondering about the proper way to handle this.

Scenario is The Commissar's House

Germans are mopping up a building - the Commissar's House - and the Russians have Booby Trap level A. The only Russian units in the building are broken.

Section 12.154 states: If a location that is Mopped Up ....and the defender has any Booby Trap capability the DEFENDER may make one Casualty dr per Search dr in an effort to cause casualties to the ...Mopping Up units.

When Mopping Up occurs there is no Search dr, so that entire statement appears to be nonsense as far as the combination of mopping up and booby traps goes. Does anyone know what the intent is here?
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Martí Cabré

Terrassa
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Read it again slowly.

Casualty dr applies when either Searching or Mopping Up there are DEFENDER Good Order units or the DEFENDER has Booby Traps.

So it's 4 different combinations.
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Peter Kossits
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Agreed - and the case of Mopping Up / Booby Traps appears to not be a case at all (ie. there is no Casualty roll made).

But even Mopping Up with Good Order defenders (which have presumably just revealed themselves from HIP) does not appear to be a case because once again, there is normally no Search dr made when mopping up.

So why is Mopping Up even mentioned at all.

marticabre wrote:
Read it again slowly.

Casualty dr applies when either Searching or Mopping Up there are DEFENDER Good Order units or the DEFENDER has Booby Traps.

So it's 4 different combinations.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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the idea is that you make a casualty dr in each case, both for mopping up and searching.
i think that the wording in the rules is simply not correct and should be "..search dr/mopping-up attempt..." instead of just "search dr".

the reason they say per search dr is that you could possibly search a building multiple times if the first search doesnt cover all the building hexes, while mopping up normally only occurs once.
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Chuck Tewksbury
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Ashburnham
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here's the rule:

12.154 SEARCH CASUALTIES: If a Location that is Searched/Mopped-Up contains an armed Good Order unit/minefield/Residual FP/HE FFE Blast Area, or if the DEFENDER has any Booby Trap capability (B28.9), the DEFENDER may make a dr in an effort to cause casualties to the searching/Mopping-Up unit(s). This Casualty dr is in addition to, not in lieu of any attack made by the DEFENDING unit(s). A Final dr ≤ 1 causes Casualty Reduction to the Searching/Mopping-Up unit (or units if Random Selection results in a tie). This Casualty dr is modified as follows:


so the rule does indeed state "Searched/Mopped up" - it doesn't say that you need a "Mopping up roll"
 
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Chuck Tewksbury
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Angelsenior wrote:
the idea is that you make a casualty dr in each case, both for mopping up and searching.
i think that the wording in the rules is simply not correct and should be "..search dr/mopping-up attempt..." instead of just "search dr".

the reason they say per search dr is that you could possibly search a building multiple times if the first search doesnt cover all the building hexes, while mopping up normally only occurs once.


the rule has the correct wording...

12.154 SEARCH CASUALTIES: If a Location that is Searched/Mopped-Up contains an armed Good Order unit/minefield/Residual FP/HE FFE Blast Area, or if the DEFENDER has any Booby Trap capability (B28.9), the DEFENDER may make a dr in an effort to cause casualties to the searching/Mopping-Up unit(s). This Casualty dr is in addition to, not in lieu of any attack made by the DEFENDING unit(s). A Final dr ≤ 1 causes Casualty Reduction to the Searching/Mopping-Up unit (or units if Random Selection results in a tie). This Casualty dr is modified as follows:
 
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Chuck Tewksbury
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and in case you wondered....

12.153 MOPPING UP: During its PFPh, an armed Good Order Infantry MMC in a multi-hex/multi-level building (Note: each hex [not Location level] of a Rowhouse must be Mopped Up separately) that contains no unconcealed unbroken enemy unit, may declare that it is becoming TI so that it may secure the building, provided it is within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which it or a friendly unit does not actually Control (26.11). If necessary, two or more units in different hexes may declare Mopping Up simultaneously (e.g., so that between them they can be within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which their side does not Control). Any hidden enemy unit(s) in the building is immediately placed in view beneath a "?", and all enemy Dummies are removed. Other concealed units remain concealed. If no concealed enemy unit remains, the building is considered secured, all its Locations Controlled, and all broken enemy units therein immediately surrender to units of the ATTACKER's choice inside that building regardless of their proximity. Mopping Up can be attempted only once per building per Player Turn but can be attempted even if no stairwell is available to reach upper levels. A rubbled/Blazing building Location is not considered part of a building for Mopping-Up purposes. Once a side employs No-Quarter/Massacre (20.3-.4), it may no longer use Mopping Up. Q&A



PS - I think the scenario you reference may have No Quarter in effect - double-check those SSRs
 
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Peter Kossits
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ctewks wrote:

PS - I think the scenario you reference may have No Quarter in effect - double-check those SSRs


Nope. There's no No Quarter. You'd think there would be because of Stalingrad, but it's civilized.

 
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Peter Kossits
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ctewks wrote:

12.154 SEARCH CASUALTIES: If a Location that is Searched/Mopped-Up contains an armed Good Order unit/minefield/Residual FP/HE FFE Blast Area, or if the DEFENDER has any Booby Trap capability (B28.9), the DEFENDER may make a dr in an effort to cause casualties to the searching/Mopping-Up unit(s). This Casualty dr is in addition to, not in lieu of any attack made by the DEFENDING unit(s). A Final dr ≤ 1 causes Casualty Reduction to the Searching/Mopping-Up unit (or units if Random Selection results in a tie). This Casualty dr is modified as follows:


This is not what I have in my rules - both the big binder and recently purchased pocket edition. Is yours the first edition?

I have "the DEFENDER may make one Casualty dr per Search dr in an effort to cause casualties".

...and that's the issue. There was no Search dr on the Mopping Up. Your rule makes sense vis a vis Booby Traps and Mopping Up - mine don't.

We ended up playing it with a single Casualty dr because it made thematic sense (troops exploring and clearing a building setting off traps).
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Chuck Tewksbury
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peterk1 wrote:
ctewks wrote:

12.154 SEARCH CASUALTIES: If a Location that is Searched/Mopped-Up contains an armed Good Order unit/minefield/Residual FP/HE FFE Blast Area, or if the DEFENDER has any Booby Trap capability (B28.9), the DEFENDER may make a dr in an effort to cause casualties to the searching/Mopping-Up unit(s). This Casualty dr is in addition to, not in lieu of any attack made by the DEFENDING unit(s). A Final dr ≤ 1 causes Casualty Reduction to the Searching/Mopping-Up unit (or units if Random Selection results in a tie). This Casualty dr is modified as follows:


This is not what I have in my rules - both the big binder and recently purchased pocket edition. Is yours the first edition?

I have "the DEFENDER may make one Casualty dr per Search dr in an effort to cause casualties".

...and that's the issue. There was no Search dr on the Mopping Up. Your rule makes sense vis a vis Booby Traps and Mopping Up - mine don't.

We ended up playing it with a single Casualty dr because it made thematic sense (troops exploring and clearing a building setting off traps).


You get one casualty dr per action. One for the Mopping Up and one every time your opponent makes a search dr. There is no search dr when you Mop Up
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Klas Malmstrom
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peterk1 wrote:
This is not what I have in my rules - both the big binder and recently purchased pocket edition. Is yours the first edition?

Yes that is the text from the 1st Edition. The text in the 2nd Edition was no doubt changed due to this official Q&A:

A12.154 If more than one Searched Location contains anything that can cause Search casualties, is one Search Casualty dr made for
each such Location?
A. No; only one such dr can be made per Search dr. [An92; An95w; An96]

I doubt the intention was the change the rule so that no Casulaties are possible when Mopping Up.
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Peter Kossits
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Mystery solved, even though the path was circuitous. Thanks all who participated, particularly Chuck who posted the older rule.


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Greg Taylor
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Hi Pete,

MMP created a softbound version of the second edition rule book for 40 USD.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/tabid/58/CategoryID/4/Prod...
 
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Peter Kossits
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Hi Greg. I have both the big binder and the paperpack rules. This particular rule is slightly off in both of those.
 
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Greg Taylor
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peterk1 wrote:
Hi Greg. I have both the big binder and the paperpack rules. This particular rule is slightly off in both of those.


Hi Pete,
Another thing that's good to have is the QA from MMP. You can find it here:
http://klasm.com/ASL/ErrataQA/ErrataQA.html
 
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