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Subject: Clinton without the baggage? rss

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Sam I am
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I was wondering if the conservative "never Hillary" types would actually vote for Hillary over Donald IF she was squeaky clean? (Or at least no slimier than the average Pol.) In other words would you give HC's a policies and positions a pass in order to keep DT out of the WH?

BTW: I'm not looking for responses from lefties who think they know how those on the right will answer.

For the sake of truthiness...

Poll
I'm conservative but I would vote for the "normally slimy" version of HRC if it kept Trump out of the White House.
Yes
No
No even if she was "normal" her policies and positions and so bad I'd much rather have Trump.
      27 answers
Poll created by rcbevco
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jeremy cobert
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I voted no, but only because you don't really explain which policies. But to be fair,I dont vote for big wallstreet banking/pro war candidates in general.
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jeremycobert wrote:
I voted no, but only because you don't really explain which policies. But to be fair,I dont vote for big wallstreet banking/pro war candidates in general.


I din't want it to turn into a shreve post of bullet-point salad. I pretty much mean everything she "stands" for and if you viewed her as ethical would you... Your response was essentially what I was looking for. Thanks for responding!
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Christopher Seguin
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I voted No, and it's a really good question that I hadn't thought about until now.

Here's why I voted NO:

I don't like Hillary's policies, and I don't like the thought of her getting a few of her nominees on the High Court. That's mostly why I won't vote for Hillary.

I also don't think that ANYTHING that Trump actually wants to do (build a wall, ban all muslims, kick out Mexicans, start a war with North Korea, etc) will ACTUALLY come to pass because the Senate will not cooperate one bit (and I doubt Paul Ryan's house will either). So whereas Hillary's mere "presence" in Washington as a player of the game enables her to cajole, trick, bribe and/or otherwise lie to get what she wants from Congress because of her "connections" (or do what she wants via fiat like Obama), Trump won't have the same ability for doing that because he is an "outsider". His lack of being a Washington Lifer will actually hurt him if he were to win. I liken Hillary's has a "Frank Underwood" persona that Trump just doesn't possess.

I still haven't come to the conclusion that the following statement is true or not, but a "never Hillary" type could argue that, in essence, Trump ends up becoming less of a threat as President than Hillary!

BUT, I also don't think that Donald can actually win in November (at least not in Ohio where I will cast my vote), which means I don't have to actually vote for Hillary to keep Donald out - I can count on other Democrats in Ohio to do that for me (except for Chin - he's voting Stein). Essentially, I keep my conscious "clean" by not voting for Hillary, but also not voting for Trump either. It's a win-lose for me in the sense that my hands are clean (I win), but that Hillary gets the White House (I lose). However, in the end, it's ultimately better than a lose-lose whereby I lose my credibility by voting Trump, and Hillary still wins the White House!

And let's supposed that my plan actually backfires (highly unlikely), and that by me NOT voting for Hillary that Trump wins the White House - at that point, it fits into the "let's watch this high-speed-car-wreck-blood-flows-red-on-the-highway disaster in motion and see how it ends in 4 years" category. Again, probably not going to happen, but it certainly would be curious to watch.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean to quote the actual poll itself.
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G Rowls
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does not compute if Hilary can get what she wants via fiat to avoid the partisan gridlock - so can Trump.
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If the office regardless of who holds it has the power to push something through regardless ie. via fiat (the nuclear option) then it doesn't matter if it is hilary or Trump. What you are arguing about is how often each candiate would be forced by the system to use the nuclear option. However they both can still use it.
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Where she would go with her court nominations is enough to be a NOPE.
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rcbevco wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
I voted no, but only because you don't really explain which policies. But to be fair,I dont vote for big wallstreet banking/pro war candidates in general.


I din't want it to turn into a shreve post of bullet-point salad. I pretty much mean everything she "stands" for and if you viewed her as ethical would you... Your response was essentially what I was looking for. Thanks for responding!


You fool. You're asking Jeremy to think rather than build collages of talking points.
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Junior McSpiffy
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I voted "no" because voting for Hillary has nothing to do with keeping Trump out. I won't vote for Trump, but I also can't vote for Hillary. Were you to cast a scenario where I could vote for her, it would be because I appreciated her positions and not to serve to thwart Trump.
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Drew1365 wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
I also don't think that ANYTHING that Trump actually wants to do (build a wall, ban all muslims, kick out Mexicans, start a war with North Korea, etc) will ACTUALLY come to pass because the Senate will not cooperate one bit (and I doubt Paul Ryan's house will either). So whereas Hillary's mere "presence" in Washington as a player of the game enables her to cajole, trick, bribe and/or otherwise lie to get what she wants from Congress because of her "connections" (or do what she wants via fiat like Obama), Trump won't have the same ability for doing that because he is an "outsider". His lack of being a Washington Lifer will actually hurt him if he were to win. I liken Hillary's has a "Frank Underwood" persona that Trump just doesn't possess.

I still haven't come to the conclusion that the following statement is true or not, but [b]a "never Hillary" type could argue that, in essence, Trump ends up becoming less of a threat as President than Hillary!


This is pretty much my position. A President Trump would be blocked at every turn by both Democrats and Republicans. A President Hillary would not be blocked -- ever.


What on Earth?

Obama is blocked often.

Clinton is less favorable among Republicans than Obama is.

How do you figure she'll be blocked less often? Obama never said Republicans are the enemy.
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Drew1365 wrote:
growlley wrote:
does not compute if Hilary can get what she wants via fiat to avoid the partisan gridlock - so can Trump.


No, that's not true.

Congress is supposed to be a check on executive power. Currently Congress has abdicated that role. But if Trump were to become President, I guarantee they'd remember.

Democrats who would let Hillary do anything she wants would not let Trump get away with anything. The media which is supposed to be non-partisan, fair, and hold both parties accountable will let Hillary get away with anything (as they've demonstrated). They will be relentless critics of Trump.

And Republicans might even prevent Trump from doing anything if only because they have to act like Democrats if they want the media to be nice to them. (See, for example, they way they've behaved over the last couple decades.)

So if you want an authoritarian leader who does what she pleases and pisses all over the constitution, Hillary should be your choice.

If you want to restore the proper balance of power, Trump should be your choice.


Conceivably, any third party is the best bet to restore (or create) a proper balance of power.

Theoretically. Sadly, this isn't pragmatic.
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Junior McSpiffy
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Terwox wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
growlley wrote:
does not compute if Hilary can get what she wants via fiat to avoid the partisan gridlock - so can Trump.


No, that's not true.

Congress is supposed to be a check on executive power. Currently Congress has abdicated that role. But if Trump were to become President, I guarantee they'd remember.

Democrats who would let Hillary do anything she wants would not let Trump get away with anything. The media which is supposed to be non-partisan, fair, and hold both parties accountable will let Hillary get away with anything (as they've demonstrated). They will be relentless critics of Trump.

And Republicans might even prevent Trump from doing anything if only because they have to act like Democrats if they want the media to be nice to them. (See, for example, they way they've behaved over the last couple decades.)

So if you want an authoritarian leader who does what she pleases and pisses all over the constitution, Hillary should be your choice.

If you want to restore the proper balance of power, Trump should be your choice.


Conceivably, any third party is the best bet to restore (or create) a proper balance of power.

Theoretically. Sadly, this isn't pragmatic.


Gary Johnson wins Utah. With those delegates removed from the pool and the states falling just right, neither Trump nor Clinton get the needed majority of delegates. A moment of sanity washes over the national legislature.
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jeremycobert wrote:
I voted no, but only because you don't really explain which policies. But to be fair,I dont vote for big wallstreet banking/pro war candidates in general.


So if you don't vote for Republicans, who do you vote for?
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Sam I am
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Thank you one in all for participating in this little thought experiment. It's possible that I might have brought in a couple Trump votes? I think that people need to dig down to the real reasons WHY or WHY NOT when they pick a side. It easy to raise the minutiae to the significant. I personally believe that the truth is often somewhere between what you feel and what you "know".
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I voted yes because I frankly want to like Clinton. She's experienced and could do a good job. While I don't like her policies in many cases, they're easily within the normal scope I expect of a politician, not the bigoted drivel Trump spews.
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Christopher Dearlove
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So the best the right wingers here can come up with is vote for Trump because the things he says he'll do won't happen.

(Ignoring of course that there is plenty that the executive branch can do - or not do - without needing support from Congress. Not to mention the remote off chance Congress might pass something sensible but have it vetoed.)

Even without the parenthesis above, that's pretty close to the stupidest political position out there. Except Trump's.
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Christopher Seguin
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rcbevco wrote:
Thank you one in all for participating in this little thought experiment. It's possible that I might have brought in a couple Trump votes? I think that people need to dig down to the real reasons WHY or WHY NOT when they pick a side. It easy to raise the minutiae to the significant. I personally believe that the truth is often somewhere between what you feel and what you "know".


Possibly, but please don't think that I am a Trump voter. I just don't know if I can be a Hillary voter either.

I watched most of her interview with (I think) Chris Wallace on Fox last night. She is very, very persuasive as a candidate (more than Trump). But then I recall the speech at the DNC by the NARAL head where she seemed so pleased and happy that she was able to have an abortion without any restrictions when it came to her first pregnancy because she didn't want to deal with the inconvenience of children at that time in her life. So it made my blood boil, and I thought "how can I support anyone who thinks or supports such a position?"

What am I supposed to do? I am conflicted immensely.

Do I hold my nose and vote Clinton because she is not Trump? Or do I hold my nose and vote Trump because he is not Clinton? Should I not vote at all, and deal with the fact that no matter who wins the White House, I will be immensely upset either way?

Ugh...it is a dilemma that I hate.
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In the context of the Legislature being the make or break for either President's "plan", does anyone know what seats are up for grabs? Would a general distaste for Trump cause moderate Republicans to stay home and give away Senate and House races? (at least enough to give the Dems and Hillary more control?)
 
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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I live in Oklahoma, it matters not for whom I vote.
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TheChin! wrote:
In the context of the Legislature being the make or break for either President's "plan", does anyone know what seats are up for grabs? Would a general distaste for Trump cause moderate Republicans to stay home and give away Senate and House races? (at least enough to give the Dems and Hillary more control?)


http://election.princeton.edu/todays-senate-seat-count-histo...

http://www.270towin.com/2016-senate-election/

Looks too close to call for the senate.



I wish the poll had distinguished between, "Won't vote for hillary" and "won't vote for both". There's a difference between voting for Trump (who is a horrific candidate) and not voting for Hillary (who has a lot of negatives and who many conservatives can't vote for given fundamental differences on abortion and similar issues).
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okiedokie wrote:
I live in Oklahoma, it matters not for whom I vote.

They stopped letting you count tumbleweeds and prairie dogs in your census, didn't they?
 
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Does "squeaky clean" include not following GWB and Obama's foreign policy?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/hillary-clinton-...
 
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This thread is pretty disturbing.

People are certainly entitled to dislike Clinton and doubt her honesty, yet its clear she's a serious, intelligent politician with a grasp on the issues.

Trump isn't.

The only way I can really rationalise it for the non-crazies is people putting judicial appointments over control of the executive and legislative branches which is really sad. Are culture wars really that meaningful for you?
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I will vote for Trump just to make you cry like babies.
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Diabolik771 wrote:
I will vote for Trump just to make you cry like babies.

1. Who do you think will cry exactly?
2. Do you think he would do a good job or even the best job of all the candidates?
 
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