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War and Peace» Forums » Rules

Subject: partial withdrawal rss

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Enrico Catanzaro
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Probably I'm missing something but I cannot find in the rules if a partial withdrawal is allowed:

a player want withdraw only a portion of the units from a given hex to reinforce another battle while the rest stays at its place continuing the combat.

is it possible?
thanks

 
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Tom Cundiff
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Are you saying that you desire to withdraw units involved in Combat A to reinforce a separate adjacent Combat B?

Or are you saying that you desire only part of the strength in an adjacent hex to reinforce an adjacent combat?

If its the first case two separate combats, though I can find no rules to the contrary, it would seem to be contrary to the ideas of W&P.

In the second case, I'd say that a partial reinforcement was possible as it is not indicated one way or the other in the rules. It would seem obvious that it would be desirous that the partially reinforcing hex have two leaders so one can stay with the units remaining behind.
 
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Walts
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The main problem you have is what version of the rules are you using?

In our (PDF Link!) 3rd Ed rules, a partial
withdrawal would be allowed, but not into a friendly
hex which is already in battle ... Ref: Section Q.

The various verions have been tweaked from various sources, so best
to see which ones you like to play which tick all these boxes ... Walts
 
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Enrico Catanzaro
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I missed to specify I'm playing with the 4th edition of rules that I think should not change form the 3rd on this topic.

the situation looks like this:

1) Stack A1 fights vs Stack B1
and, two hexes away,
Stack A2 fights vs Stack B2


2) After the first round of combat Player A decides that fight A1 needs reinforcements but there are no other units nearby, so
he must disengage a few strenght points from stack A2 and use them to reinforce stack A1;

3)Then in round 2 Player A withdraws voluntarily a few factors in a hex adjacent to stack A1 from stack A2, leaving a "pinning force" to continue the fight vs Stack B2;

4) in round 3 Player A tries to reinforce stack A1 per rule N7a with the strenght points coming from stack A2 since they now are adjacent to stack A1.

this way I make a "partial withdrawal" and I have reinforced a combat taking some strength points from another combat that continues with the remaining factors. Note I'm not using rule Qe (not appliacable here since the units from stack A2 in this case cannot retreat in a hex containing friendly strenght points because they are at two hexes of distance).


so the question is:
is it possible a partial withdraw like the one described in point 3?
or, in other words, a withdrawal not vacating completely a hex?

I think yes because this not prohibited by the rules and (IMO) fully in the spirit of the simulation.

note: post partially edited for clarity


 
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John Gant
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I did make some changes to base rules from 3rd edition to 4th. Minor clarifications. However, I don't recall this being changed.

Let me know if you'd like me to look in to this question.

--JokerRulez
 
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Enrico Catanzaro
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yes please.
I can create a diagram from VASSAL if this is may help to clarify the question.

however I hope my post above is clear enough.

also I would know something about the other two questions I posted in this section

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1612946/end-battle

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1612933/combat-sequence-tab...

thanks again

 
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Enrico Catanzaro
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Q1 says a player can witdraw any of his forces committed to a field battle.

I take this as a permission to withdraw only a part of the Strength Points of a given hex, leaving in place the rest to continue the battle.


 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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ecz67 wrote:
Q1 says a player can witdraw any of his forces committed to a field battle.

I take this as a permission to withdraw only a part of the Strength Points of a given hex, leaving in place the rest to continue the battle.


What Q1 says is:

Quote:
At the end of each round of combat, immediately before he attempts to commit additional strength points, each player may voluntarily withdraw any of his forces which were committed to field battle during the round according to the following restrictions:


I've read this to mean that for a particular battle a "force" withdraws as all or nothing. The rule considers a situation where there are potentially multiple battles ongoing. The choice to withdraw, or not, on a particular round is made on a battle by battle basis. However for a specific battle it is all or nothing.
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John Gant
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I think I clarified this question for the sequel to explicitly allow partial force withdrawal.

From a design perspective I ask what is it I wish to allow by this rule? To manage force attrition and to enable the Napoleonic method of Corps movement I allow this.

Kenny, as always, does have an excellent reading of the original rules. I do think that original has ambiguity here though.


--JokerRulez
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Enrico Catanzaro
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thanks for the answers.

I also think that a partial force withdrawal captures better the spirit of the Napoleonic Battles and enriches the level of the tactical choices during the combat phase.
No apparent reason to negate this option, also because the rules seem allow this.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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JokerRulez wrote:
... I do think that original has ambiguity here though.


--JokerRulez


I agree, it isn't entirely clear in the original rules. Part of the issue is that the term "force" isn't clearly defined. It appears, based on usage, to refer to the entirety of something performing an action, e.g. a "force" is moved, a "force" is engaged in a battle. However, I did just offer my reading of it. It can certainly be read / played other ways. I guess I would be concerned about players withdrawing particular SPs in order to manipulate the composition of their force as the battle progresses (e.g. withdraw a SP or two in order to change the morale or which SPs must be taken as losses). However, I haven't thought through all of the implications because that's not the way that I've played it.
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John Gant
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Good thoughts.

Kenny, have you considered that kind of force management you write about seems like smart generalship rather than being gamey?

Don’t we have countless examples of Napoleon rotating forces in and out just as you outline?

Worth considering.

—JokerRulez
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