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In the Name of Odin» Forums » Rules

Subject: People avoiding taking the final raid due to losing bonus points rss

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Had an interesting ending tonight, where everyone's scores were so tight that nobody wanted to take the final raid.

It was a 3 pointer raid, and the deaths on the raid mean that the player who went on the raid would end up down a point or two because they'd lose the bonus points for "3 warriors of the same colour" and also the bonus for "three warriors; one of each colour".

Because of that, we went round the board twice with people just buying buildings and getting more ships to boost their scores, and leaving it for someone else to take the raid hit. Ragnar had already gone, so him leading the raid (no raid losses) wasn't going to happen. We ended up stopping the game after everyone had had equal numbers of turns, but wondered if there was an official way to break the stalemate we'd missed?
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Scott Mohnkern
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Krzysztof Zięba
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Hi. This is a pretty rare occurence, I think. A situation like that never came up when we tested the game

My suggestion would be to play just a single round of the game when the last Raid is left on the board. If somebody manages to snatch it, good for him - but if nobody can make it, just finish up so that the player who did the penultimate raid doesn't get another turn.

That said, this solution isn't perfect, and can influence the strategy in the final few turns, so agree to this optional end game at the beginning, so that everyone is informed
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prisby wrote:
Had an interesting ending tonight, where everyone's scores were so tight that nobody wanted to take the final raid.

It was a 3 pointer raid, and the deaths on the raid mean that the player who went on the raid would end up down a point or two because they'd lose the bonus points for "3 warriors of the same colour" and also the bonus for "three warriors; one of each colour".

Because of that, we went round the board twice with people just buying buildings and getting more ships to boost their scores, and leaving it for someone else to take the raid hit. Ragnar had already gone, so him leading the raid (no raid losses) wasn't going to happen. We ended up stopping the game after everyone had had equal numbers of turns, but wondered if there was an official way to break the stalemate we'd missed?

In my two games we have the same situation. In second one we just assume everyone has 3 set of 3 kinds of Vikings.
It's not rare, it's quite obvious.
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Krzysztof Zięba
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Well, the other idea I had was to award additional points for the final raid, which means it's always worth doing, but that might unbalance the game in favour of whoever does that final raid. It would be an incentive, though.

We'll ponder this, though as I mentioned, I haven't really seen this situation come around.

I think that if this situation comes to your table often, you might want to disregard the additional points for Vikings at the end of the game. Unfortunately, this might have the side effect of having people play "empty" turns, when they know they won't be able to do a raid, and will have nothing else to do than hope they can get a building or perhaps a ship worth points... but if in your experience players do the same (ie. struggle to do anything but the final raid) maybe it's going to shorten the end game and have pretty much the same effect as the other suggestions in this thread.
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Chris Mikols
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Could you 'nerf' the viking end game scoring a bit? Maybe you can freely score sets and/or three of a kinds but you have to spend the individual Vikings doing so. This way you can't score the same viking for a set and triplet?
(sorry if this is a bad idea... Haven't played the game yet)
 
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Our other thought was that perhaps there needs to be at least one more way of triggering the endgame, so people know it's coming and can adjust accordingly.

1. Taking the penultimate raid (as you suggest).
OR
2. Completing your 5 building village.
OR
3. Hiring the penultimate hero.

When this trigger event happens, then everyone (including the triggering player) gets one more turn. That way people DO want to activate the end game, and know they'll get the bonus of an extra go if they do trigger.

Anyway, Thanks for the feedback, and it's sorta good to see it's happened in other peoples games and we didn't just miss something
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Krzysztof Zięba
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I like the "Completing the 5th building in the village" trigger, because it's pretty tricky to do and it takes a lot of time. One thing that should be checked though is whether it's possible the cheese your way to victory by ONLY doing Construction actions for the entire game. If you laser-focus on this, I can imagine it's not going to be too easy (you won't always get a hand of Action cards that allows you to fully commit to that strategy), but still potentially doable.
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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How about just "refunding" the Vikings from the last raid? That way it would not be a loss and (in my opinion) not terribly imbalanced either.
 
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Roland Johansson
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I just remembered,
if you can hire Ragnar you won't expend any vikings in the raid....

that would solve this?

edit: I just read that he already appeared and would probably take some time to get him back....


but what about not scoring raidcards until after the game?

and then only score seapoints and matchmakingpoints in raids?

could be more minus though....
 
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Mark Hayton
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rolle wrote:
but what about not scoring raidcards until after the game?

and then only score seapoints and matchmakingpoints in raids?

could be more minus though....


This is what I was thinking of trying to add some hidden scoring so it was less likely that players could tell how close the scores were.
 
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Massimo Vaccari
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Hello all,
i had my first 2 player game yesterday evening.
The game is really beautiful and it's so fast to play that we had 2 game in a night.
Regarding your problem with the last raid i end up the last game with a raid that (fortunally) do not needs so many vikings also because i had a lot of discounts... i was also without cards in my hand so i suffered the -2 fame penalty but i won the game do to the 9 vikings remained on my board and for the building i had...
So my suggestions to the other player is to build up the village and then go to raid... leave the first raid to the other players!

:-)

Cheers and have a good game
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David Marowske
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Lord_Kristof wrote:
Hi. This is a pretty rare occurence, I think. A situation like that never came up when we tested the game

My suggestion would be to play just a single round of the game when the last Raid is left on the board. If somebody manages to snatch it, good for him - but if nobody can make it, just finish up so that the player who did the penultimate raid doesn't get another turn.

That said, this solution isn't perfect, and can influence the strategy in the final few turns, so agree to this optional end game at the beginning, so that everyone is informed


On my first game at the table this happened for our group. One raid was left worth 3 victory points. No one wanted to take it as it would cost more victory points in vikings. It appears several people are reporting the same thing and it seems to be a problem. This is clearly an issue that needs to be addressed. Just ending the game on the last round the final raid is left does not seem very thematic. Everyone will likely just max out their vikings to get sets.

Perhaps instead of immediately ending the game after the final raid takes place, the acting player can finish out his turn. This would've helped in our game as the acting player had plenty of action cards to recoup the vikings he would have spent on the raid.
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David Marowske
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Just played my 2nd game, and sure enough the same thing happened again - 3 point raid left in 1st sea zone. No one wants to raid. Fortunately, some one was eager to end the game as he had to leave, so he went on it. Of course he ended up with a net loss of points.

I think this one is going into my "For Trade/Sale" pile. I wanted to like the game, but the ending really sours it for me.
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Dan Keller
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This happened in my very first game as well, though I was at least expecting it due to this thread.

One solution I thought might mitigate this situation is that the game end is triggered when you cannot replace the empty Raid spot on the board from the empty Raid deck.
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David Marowske
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chopperdan wrote:
This happened in my very first game as well, though I was at least expecting it due to this thread.

One solution I thought might mitigate this situation is that the game end is triggered when you cannot replace the empty Raid spot on the board from the empty Raid deck.

That would end the game way too early. 14 raid cards are drawn in a 5 player game. The game would then end after the 10th raid.
 
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foksieloy
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Increase VP value of the raid for every empty spot?

Makes the 4th before end raid +1, 3rd +2, 2nd +3 and last +4.

Thematically: raids that no one dared till then bring more prestige.
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Dan Keller
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esquire468 wrote:
chopperdan wrote:
This happened in my very first game as well, though I was at least expecting it due to this thread.

One solution I thought might mitigate this situation is that the game end is triggered when you cannot replace the empty Raid spot on the board from the empty Raid deck.

That would end the game way too early. 14 raid cards are drawn in a 5 player game. The game would then end after the 10th raid.

Yeah forgot to add that all the Raid cards would be used. This would keep the game around the same length.
 
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Jarad Bond
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chopperdan wrote:
esquire468 wrote:
chopperdan wrote:
This happened in my very first game as well, though I was at least expecting it due to this thread.

One solution I thought might mitigate this situation is that the game end is triggered when you cannot replace the empty Raid spot on the board from the empty Raid deck.

That would end the game way too early. 14 raid cards are drawn in a 5 player game. The game would then end after the 10th raid.

Yeah forgot to add that all the Raid cards would be used. This would keep the game around the same length.

If that's the case, then it is the same as the author's original suggestion that the game end is triggered when only one raid is left, except that you are adding more choices for the final raids (which wasn't really the initial problem).

Personally, my only concern with Odin is that the ending is awkward. I can't believe this never came up in playtesting. The smoothest solution I've seen so far is to let the last player finish their turn. Can we get the designer's thoughts on allowing the person who completes the last raid to finish their turn and possibly get some of the points from vikings sets that they lost on the raid? Is that going to imbalance the game?
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John Aronis
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It does happen quite often. The 3-point raids are generally less desirable and are more likely to get shifted to last spot. I don't see it as a rare occurrence.

The best idea is just adding 5 extra raid cards to the deck and then trigger the end game when the raids can't be replenished.

The other idea I liked was adding points when the raid options became less (+1 point with the last spot empty,+2 points for when you are down to the last 2 raids).

Both of these options however just amplify the first player problem (if everything is equal, the first player can now score more points on his move and end the game with a turn advantage). I see equal turns working for the first option but the second option may need some compensation for later players (an extra action card on the first turn or something similar).
 
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Jarad Bond
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jakkaof86 wrote:
The best idea is just adding 5 extra raid cards to the deck and then trigger the end game when the raids can't be replenished.

I may be inferring something that's not there from the designer's earlier comments, but it seems to me that he wanted the game to end immediately when the last raid was taken. I assume that was for balance, even though I'm not entirely convinced.

Ending after equal turns does give the last players a huge advantage beyond the original design, but puts the idea of fairness back by allowing the people shorted out of an entire turn to get an opportunity to make some of it back up.

The last players already did have a small, subtle advantage. Remember the point brought up by another poster in these forums: If you are the last player, most other players are going to get an initial raid finished before you. That gives you the best opportunity to make your hand better via the previous raid modifications. Adding even more raids might tip the scales beyond fair (by a small amount) to be in their favor.

Now, that said, I really don't think your idea is bad either. I would be interested if you keep track of your plays and report back after a bunch of plays to see how things are going. It's all anecdotal, of course, but fun (you'd need 100's or 1000's of playtests to find any significant trends).

 
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Joe Wiltshire
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First play last night and same issue and came to BGG and saw others having the same issue.

My thought, upon reflection, is that there is no easy fix and its there deliberately so that the player who thinks they are currently leading will end it and not have a big move. It's one of those things - you might score more points this turn but the others may well score more than you.

In our game the other two passed up the final raid opportunity looking for building points. I ended up rearranging my warrior mix on my turn. 6-4-4 is the best final scoring combo with the 14 person building. I had 6 red and 4 blue and 4 black and the last raid required 3 blue and 1 red. I had the building which added a wild icon to the hero card for raiding, a ship with a black icon and a hero with a blue. So I swapped out two reds for two blues, used the wild icon as a red and ended up only losing one point from end scoring. This was more than compensated by the fact that if the game continued the other players would be making potentially 2 x 2/3 point plays building or buying ships, whereas ending it right now guaranteed they were stuck.

I thoroughly enjoyed the game.

If I was going to implement one of the suggestions above - I think I would go for the bonus points for the last few raids (but maybe 1/2 point per unfilled raiding space rounded down - meaning 4 raids on board = no bonus, 2 or 3 raids on board = 1 point bonus, 1 raid left = 2 point bonus)
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Rob Mortimer
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Why not just add one raid extra and finish immediately the penultimate raid is completed? Should reduce chances of the weird ending scenario. Or even add two and end when two are left? The game comes with 16 raid cards and uses 8-14 depending on number of players.
 
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Jarad Bond
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I wanted to add on one more message after playing a hybrid of these suggestions. I realize this is probably more of a variant thread by now, but I'll be quick.

Adding more raids and strange equal-turns-after-triggering-end conditions doesn't seem to change the problem any. After those failures, I had really good success just letting that person finish out their turn. It gives the incentive to complete that last raid and there is no problem. You can always set yourself up to gain a couple bonus viking points back after the raid to recover your lost points. I didn't do equal turns, but it is probably a good idea too.

And, suddenly, you have a nice, clean, fair, non-fiddly ending.
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David Marowske
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I gave up on this game and sold it a few months ago. Too many better games out there, even ones with viking themes, to even bother with this one. I am not saying it's a bad game. It's just ok.
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