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Subject: Growth symbols and "4 or more decay revealed" during Prep Phase rss

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Brent Mair
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The rules state that "If at any time during your Planting Phase or Prep Phase you have 4 or more Decay symbols revealed, then you spoil. (page 9, Spoiling).

On page 13 under Prep Phase it says "If your field has 2 Decay symbol and you on-deck cards shows an additional 2 or more Decay Icons, you automatically Spoil..."

Back on page 9 it states that a revealed growth symbol cancel a decay symbol. Does that mean the decay symbol is no longer showing?

The example on page 9 is awful since it uses the term revealed and says you spoil with five decay symbols revealed if you have a growth symbol.

Am I counting actual showing decay icons, or the relative number after I subtract for growth?
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Lee Fisher
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Spielguy wrote:
The rules state that "If at any time during your Planting Phase or Prep Phase you have 4 or more Decay symbols revealed, then you spoil. (page 9, Spoiling).

On page 13 under Prep Phase it says "If your field has 2 Decay symbol and you on-deck cards shows an additional 2 or more Decay Icons, you automatically Spoil..."

Back on page 9 it states that a revealed growth symbol cancel a decay symbol. Does that mean the decay symbol is no longer showing?

The example on page 9 is awful since it uses the term revealed and says you spoil with five decay symbols revealed if you have a growth symbol.

Am I counting actual showing decay icons, or the relative number after I subtract for growth?


The relative number minus growth or other cancelling effects. That is the whole point of growth really.
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Chad Egbert
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A growth does indeed cancel a decay. So if on one card you have both a decay and growth, it's like that card does not have a decay.

The example is correct, in a way but could have been worded better. If in your field you have 3 decay symbols and a growth and no decay in your on deck, in effect you have 2 decay total. So you would bring the on deck card (no decay) into your field and even if the card you flip over for the on deck has a decay, you would be at 3 decay total and would stop (unless you want to push your luck.
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Brent Mair
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It is the egregious misuse of both "revealed" and "showing" which causes the issue. These words get redefined without explanation since I'm not actually counting the decay icons, but counting those icons and subtracting out the growth. But that subtraction does nothing to un-reveal or un-show the decay icons.

The example wording is also poor since it shows an additive, not subtractive example. The decay threshold is increased by the growth icon. Now it is "5 or more decay revealed".

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David Arnott
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Interesting.

To me, the Prep phase can be (mis?)interpreted as "just keep revealing and adding cards until you have 3 decay symbols - regardless of growth symbols." Mind you, I'm not saying that's right - Heh, I haven't even played the game yet - but the terseness of that section, added with the fact that you are encouraged to do this while the next player takes their turn, could totally be looked at this way. IMO.
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fido
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We're currently arguing about this so a definitive answer from the creators would be nice...
 
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Graham Gass
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What do you guys think growth does if it doesn't subtract from your displayed decay symbols?
 
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fido
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During the prep phase it's "relevant" if you ignore these or not. Tbh, it didn't affect gameplay to do it during the push phase or during the prep phase...
When there were growth icons, we'd push automatically
But there might eventually come cards influencing the prep phase of others so there it becomes relevant
 
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Brent Mair
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atzerath wrote:
During the prep phase it's "relevant" if you ignore these or not. Tbh, it didn't affect gameplay to do it during the push phase or during the prep phase...
When there were growth icons, we'd push automatically
But there might eventually come cards influencing the prep phase of others so there it becomes relevant

If I have two decay on a single card in my draw deck then there could be a relevant choice as to whether to push or not, even if you aren't at the wo plus one stage.
 
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fido
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Yes, but that's not what we were discussing..we were wondering if it mattered during the prep phase and only the prep phase. Pushing or not is the beginning of your next round so...
 
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Jason Monroe
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I had the same exact question, but I couldn't think of why growth wouldn't be taken into account during the prep stage.
If they were only applicable during the planting phase, they wouldn't nearly be as desirable
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Box of Delights
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belial1134 wrote:
I had the same exact question, but I couldn't think of why growth wouldn't be taken into account during the prep stage.
If they were only applicable during the planting phase, they wouldn't nearly be as desirable


This was my question too...! argh!

So, I think this statement in the Prep rules will be the one that suggests the intent that Growth applies during the Prep phase as well as Planting:

"..you automatically spoil...[if you have 4 or more showing]"

i.e. if you have 3 Decay symbols showing and 1 or more Growth symbols showing then you should continue to play cards during the Prep phase until Decay minus growth equals 3.

My first few games I played that I would stop prepping as soon as I had 3 Decay, irrespective of Growth, and it made little difference to the game, but it's that case of hitting 4 and auto-spoiling which made me think actually, the growth must not only stop you spoiling during prep, it must also stop decay completely (i.e. it must also stop preventing you from prepping further).

In short: I don't think it makes any sense to stop prepping at 3 decay, irrespective of growth, but instead I think growth should be defined as making it like the decay symbol doesn't exist in the first place.
 
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Box of Delights
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I think the answer is on page 17 under the "Grovetender" description where it qualifies that you have the Growth while Grovetender is in your field or on-deck. i.e. it implies that Growth is effective whilst on-deck.
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Doug DeMoss
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Rules organization is poor for this game, IMO. But I think the reference card makes it clear in the description that Growth "cancels" Decay, and I don't think the rules even make sense if you try to apply any other interpretation, so it must count for Prep Phase. That card also makes it clear that Growth is effective on-deck.

Likewise, that card is the only place where it is spelled out clearly how Wild Spirit works (an example in the book hints at it, but not all that clearly). I know my initial thought upon reading the rules was that it was just a fourth type of spirit, as "wild" is just as applicable thematically as in the card game sense....

That brings up something I hadn't considered before, though. Does the end-game effect of Gaia's Chosen (+1 VP per icon of various types on the same card) count Decay icons that are canceled by a Growth on the same card? It's clear that text effects that cancel them don't apply, but I think the Growth WOULD cancel it for this purpose.
 
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Jason Monroe
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demoss1 wrote:
Rules organization is poor for this game, IMO. But I think the reference card makes it clear in the description that Growth "cancels" Decay, and I don't think the rules even make sense if you try to apply any other interpretation, so it must count for Prep Phase. That card also makes it clear that Growth is effective on-deck.

Likewise, that card is the only place where it is spelled out clearly how Wild Spirit works (an example in the book hints at it, but not all that clearly). I know my initial thought upon reading the rules was that it was just a fourth type of spirit, as "wild" is just as applicable thematically as in the card game sense....

That brings up something I hadn't considered before, though. Does the end-game effect of Gaia's Chosen (+1 VP per icon of various types on the same card) count Decay icons that are canceled by a Growth on the same card? It's clear that text effects that cancel them don't apply, but I think the Growth WOULD cancel it for this purpose.


I'd have to take a closer look at the icons printed on the card but since decay can cancel growth on any card in your field, I don't think decay matters. You just get 1 vp for icon as depicted on Gaia's chosen. There wouldn't be any loss of vp/cancellation for decay anywhere in your deck at that point

Just my thoughts
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