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Dominion: Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Donate must be banned? rss

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Alexander Komarnitsky
Germany
Munich
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Hi.

Today we played first time with Donate event. If we correctly understand - this one is ultimately powerful than Chapel. Let me give you an example:

First and second turn - buy Silver.
Third and fourth - silver and gold (if you are lucky enough).
Fifth - buy Donate event, pay some debt with money in this turn, take some for further. Take all your cards in hand after this turn, remove all 1 VPs and Coppers. You will have something like 3 Silver + 1 Gold.
6 turn - pay debt back and buy Silver.
Starting from turn 7 - start buying Province and Gold.

Ultimate win. All other Action cards mean nothing in such king of game flow.

Or we incorrectly play Donate event?
 
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Stephen Rochelle
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I think you're playing Donate correctly, but missing the end effect. A good deck will still take advantage of other kingdom cards to, for example, buy multiple victory cards per turn. It's an accelerator, certainly, but it should not lead you to devolve to Big Money.
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David desJardins
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lomn wrote:
I think you're playing Donate correctly, but missing the end effect. A good deck will still take advantage of other kingdom cards to, for example, buy multiple victory cards per turn. It's an accelerator, certainly, but it should not lead you to devolve to Big Money.


I'm skeptical. Certainly there might be times that you buy something else than Silver, but the number of turns you would have to skip Provinces in order to buy other cards just to try to get 2x Province in one turn seems too much to be reasonable. Recall that a standard 4-player game ends when everyone has bought 3 Provinces, which could be around turn 8 or 9.
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Robin Zigmond
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You can play a similar strategy with Chapel - but it doesn't actually work that well. I think simulations have shown that Chapel + Big Money is a pretty even match to pure Big Money (with no trashing) - you get a slower start with all that trashing, then yes you have 2-3 turns where your high money density lets you buy a province each turn, but then you start to really struggle because adding useless green cards to a 4-5 card deck is much more harmful than adding them to a 15-20 card deck.

Trashing is there to enable action-based strategies, by near guaranteeing that you start with the right engine pieces in hand to draw the rest of your deck. It isn't worth the tempo loss in treasure-based strategies. (Now, Donate might be a bit quicker than Chapel, but I doubt it's enough quicker to make a thin-deck Big Money strategy particularly viable against good opponents. Note that I don't have Empires yet and don't remember precisely what Donate does, so I can't comment on the details of that card - but in general trashing and money-based strategies don't go together.)
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Clive Jones

Cambridgeshire, UK
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Um. The Dominion Strategy Big Money wiki page says basic BM takes 17 turns to buy 4 Provinces. That sounds a lot more realistic to me than 8/9 turns for 3.

Meanwhile, a thin deck's not actually great for BM, is it?
 
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David desJardins
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clivej wrote:
Um. The Dominion Strategy Big Money wiki page says basic BM takes 17 turns to buy 4 Provinces. That sounds a lot more realistic to me than 8/9 turns for 3.


Are we still talking about Donate? Or did you change the subject entirely to what happens if you don't use Donate?

I was a bit optimistic, but my simulation shows that Big Money combined with Donate of all Copper and Estates on turn 5 gets to 3 Provinces in 9.88 turns, on average. Clearly there's not much you're going to do to make that much faster by buying actions, although there certainly be cases where one or two actions are better than Silver or Gold.
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Clive Jones

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DaviddesJ wrote:
Recall that a standard 4-player game ends when everyone has bought 3 Provinces, which could be around turn 8 or 9.

Ah. I thought by "standard" you meant "without Donate". Hence my comment about it seeming optimistic.

BM/Donate getting 3 Provinces after eight or nine turns is more plausible, I guess.

I've now checked my recollection, and BM/Chapel is indeed 50-50 against BM. If Donate is genuinely much stronger than Chapel in BM, that's as alarming as it is surprising.
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David Wallin
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please stop playing dominion @ 4 players!
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Fred Snertz
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Are there other strategies faster than 9.88 turns? Only played with Donate once so far but it definitely felt like a card that could not be ignored which makes the kingdom a little less fun for me.
 
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Tables
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Donate games are just different. If you're playing with Empires you're presumably an experienced group, that will see the value of getting Donate. It's extremely powerful and you want it in 9/10 games it's available, yeah, but what you do from then is still what will determine the game. You can get an engine running extremely quickly from there and get significant control over the game.
 
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